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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 28, 2017 7:25:53 GMT
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 28, 2017 7:31:25 GMT
Aren't they usually characterized by multifullered blades and the riveted hilt?
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 28, 2017 7:35:27 GMT
My thoughts exactly - they usually look like this:  However, I'm not sure the hilt was actually riveted (with two handle scales attached to a full tang). Here you can see a blade with a definite "rat-tail" (for lack of better term) tang; also, the peened end of the tang can be seen on the pommels of other examples.  |
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 28, 2017 7:38:04 GMT
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Post by SandStormZA on Dec 28, 2017 7:52:30 GMT
It doesn't look like a typical cinquedea to me, although I have no authority in the matter. To me, it almost looks like a full sized sword got broken and the owner had it recycled into something else.
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stormmaster
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Post by stormmaster on Dec 28, 2017 7:55:13 GMT
i think it depends how long the blade is, a pic showing the entirety of the piece would make it easier, but it looks like it is a cinquedea, take what i say with a grain of salt because i am a amateur
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Post by MOK on Dec 28, 2017 8:17:37 GMT
I would say that the only thing resembling the cinquedea style there is the fact that it's a shortish sword and the guard is curved. The construction is different, the hilt is different, the blade is different, the overall proportions are different, the decorative flourishes are different, the entire design in general and in detail is different - aside from the silhouette of the guard, and even that is in fact very different on a closer look. So no, IMO, not a cinquedea, just a contemporary sword, unless you're going to use "cinquedea" as a generic term for any Renaissance Italian short sword... Frigging gorgeous, though! PS. Follow the link, there are full length photos.  |
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Post by MOK on Dec 28, 2017 8:33:44 GMT
However, I'm not sure the hilt was actually riveted (with two handle scales attached to a full tang). Here you can see a blade with a definite "rat-tail" (for lack of better term) tang; also, the peened end of the tang can be seen on the pommels of other examples. AFAIK the typical hilt construction features a framed rather than exposed tang, just like on many bowie knives - there's a metal frame that fits around the tang, and this whole construction is sandwiched between the grip scales; the tang itself may be riveted or peened or both, but is not actually visible on the edges of the grip. |
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 28, 2017 21:16:15 GMT
I would say that the only thing resembling the cinquedea style there is the fact that it's a shortish sword and the guard is curved. The construction is different, the hilt is different, the blade is different, the overall proportions are different, the decorative flourishes are different, the entire design in general and in detail is different - aside from the silhouette of the guard, and even that is in fact very different on a closer look. So no, IMO, not a cinquedea, just a contemporary sword, unless you're going to use "cinquedea" as a generic term for any Renaissance Italian short sword... Frigging gorgeous, though! PS. Follow the link, there are full length photos. So the defining characteristics of a cinquedea would probably be the multifullered blade and unique hilt style, as JordanWilliams said. What would this sword be defined as then? A Type XXI or XXII? However, I'm not sure the hilt was actually riveted (with two handle scales attached to a full tang). Here you can see a blade with a definite "rat-tail" (for lack of better term) tang; also, the peened end of the tang can be seen on the pommels of other examples. AFAIK the typical hilt construction features a framed rather than exposed tang, just like on many bowie knives - there's a metal frame that fits around the tang, and this whole construction is sandwiched between the grip scales; the tang itself may be riveted or peened or both, but is not actually visible on the edges of the grip. Interesting - sounds like the same method was often used on shamshir. What's the point though? More weight in the hilt for the sake of balance? Pure decor? It seems that it'd be easier to make it the traditional way. |
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Post by legacyofthesword on Dec 29, 2017 18:14:26 GMT
Here's another interesting photo: it shows the tangs as being fairly wide, and with holes for rivets.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 23:28:23 GMT
Despite any fuller or tang configuration, the meaning of the short sword name is to describe five fingers wide (which the object sword is not). We are seeing a very nice and decorated arming sword. The etching and gilt quite exquisite.
There are a bazillion misrepresented photos and presentations so it seems foolish to me that so many electrons have been used to debate what should be obvious to all but the quite novice. Easier just to write that the person presenting the object is simply wrong.
It is though great to see the images (especially if sources are linked and acknowledged).
There is an expensive book for Italian arms but I don't know if parts of it are online anymore. There have been some great book plates with terminology posted up over the years. Probably at myArmoury in a cinquedea thread or in ARMA articles somewhere. My mental flash drive kind of got wiped clean after a stroke, so I don't exactly remember where the plates are.
Carry on
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 23:32:55 GMT
Looks like it came off a seller's listing. www.fricker-historische-waffen.de/kataloge/Not the first time we'll have seen a badly described sale. I may dig in there for the sale but I have lots of other reading and filing I could be doing. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 23:46:58 GMT
Ya, someone pulled it off a pinterest page.
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Post by MOK on Dec 30, 2017 10:12:20 GMT
So the defining characteristics of a cinquedea would probably be the multifullered blade and unique hilt style, as JordanWilliams said. Like edelweiss I'd say the defining characteristic of the type is the breadth and shape of the blade (about a hand's width at the base, linear profile taper almost all the way to the point), and to a lesser extent the variously complex tiered arrangement of fullers. The shape and construction of the hilt (the scalloped grip and horseshoe pommel plate, and either a slab tang with a sandwiched guard or framed tang with a solid guard) are also typical, but I'd call them secondary features; while they aren't as typical, there are many cinquedea, especially in full sword length, hilted in more conventional styles (like the one linked to by legacyofthesword earlier in this thread). None of that - it's from after the Oakeshott typology's "best before" date. It's just a beautiful 16th Century Italian arming sword with a number of very interesting features (like the blade geometry with its concave profile taper and gladius-like foible). IMO you're better off just describing the details than trying to fit the whole into any neat category, here, and this is the case with many Renaissance luxury weapons - it was a time of ostentatious experimentation rather than sticking to established patterns. Indeed! It looks cool and is a challenge to make, impressive to own and a bit of a puzzle for the uninitiated viewer. So, yeah, looks and bragging rights, I should say. |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 30, 2017 10:37:48 GMT
No! ( ) |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 19:58:32 GMT
No! ( ) Ah a fellow peterbeteur |
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