Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 21, 2017 0:39:51 GMT
I recently been toying around with my Katana, after having it in storage for so long, trying to rebuild my forearm strength. And I was also looking into different uses of a shield, and recently got inspired by the overhand spear grip with a shield.
I tried this grip, holding my Katana in reverse grip and realized that with a large shield, this is a pretty effective way to use a Katana in reverse grip. Its length is pretty good for this, and plus the fact it is a Dotanaki blade, it is quite heavy for regular one handed use. But holding it in this manner, I feel I can effectively use the point in a thrust, as thrusting in a forward grip while having to curve the point upward, feels slightly flimsy.
What do you guys think? Perhaps I can do a drawing of what exactly I mean, but this feels like an actually useful way to use a reverse grip
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 21, 2017 0:45:39 GMT
Considering the recent discussion of hoplite spears sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/52860/advise-on-replica-300-spear you should be able to make it work by holding your hand high and using it like a baby dory. A real dory would give you about 3' more reach, but if the sword provides more reach than your opponents have, you don't need 3' more reach. I'd rather stay in forward grip and get better cutting when the opportunity arises.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 21, 2017 0:50:13 GMT
My only problem with forward grip is my forearms have weakened quite a bit. My old KC 29 Katana would be great for this, but my Ronin Dojo Pro is quite heavy for one handed use. Not so much that it can't be done, but it makes my movements sluggish.
I also remember seeing a video where I seen Kenjutsu practitioners hold the blade upside down to deliver a thrust, making the point descend rather than ascend from a standard mid guard. I find this makes sense when getting power out of a katana, as an ascending thrust feels like a rather weak way to get power into that thick kissaki.
I guess the main idea is using this sword with a big shield, like the kinds romans used. Maybe even doing this if in tight quarters
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 21, 2017 5:54:32 GMT
I think you lose more possible actions this way than you win. And it might be tiring after some time.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Dec 21, 2017 17:45:45 GMT
Beef up your forearms :shocked:
But yeah, I can't see any actual advantage to using a sword that way. I think you'd lose a lot of leverage.
How long is your katana blade?
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 21, 2017 19:16:59 GMT
More typically with shields you see an oberschtit style thrust from above, where the thumb is used to push up and the palm is facing outwards. The shield covers the center while the sword stabs above. However, there is one area where it would be better to have a reverse or "icepick" grip--if the target is under your guard. The one area you see icepick grips in period art for swords is where the wielder is stabbing at someone down at his waist. And there may be good tactical reasons for this. If you use the standard style you can't attack directly below you. That's illustrated here: It's basically an attacker getting "under the gun" of a giant opponent. So yeah I can see the icepick being a viable option esp. for extra tall fighters who have a larger vulnerability below their arm level. We have a fellow in our group who's about 6'8" and he's incredibly vulnerable to being undercut by us hobbits. Conversely, he's tall enough he really doesn't need to obserschtit to get our head and neck--he literally can stab right down into us using the sword like a dagger. His hands are big enough to do it too. For ordinary mortals, though, that style of grip leaves your hands out in front of your sword and consequently very vulnerable to being lopped off. For spearing it lacks the same reach as the standard obserschtit and more importantly if your attack is deflected you can't "unwrap" your thrust into a cut to his right side.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2017 1:39:10 GMT
Can you think of ways to effectively use an elbow strike? Do the same things but with your sword held in a "reverse grip".
A straight punch has an entire forearm extra of length, and yet an elbow strike is still a "real thing".
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 25, 2017 21:37:37 GMT
Andi: That is true, but I suppose the main context for me is that this is a way the reverse grip could actually be useful, as opposed to tv based hilarity
Jordan: Its a dojo pro. Not sure how long it is, but I would guess its standard length. Being able to use it one handed would definitely be much better in a forward grip if I was strong enough. I could effectively do back yard cutting with one hand, but it wouldn't be my first option if I was sparring or for some reason in a duel. But I would rather stick to my saber when it comes to a one handed duelling weapon
Cosmoline: Excellent points. That is very insightful. Gives me ideas for application, especially if one was competent enough to be able to switch grips fast. The power one can get from these thrusts is one thing I like about this concept, as opposed to having a sluggish hand attempting to weakly cut at the opponent, plus the angle utilizes the curve of the blade. Or at least I think it would anyway
Jon: Good points as well. They wouldn't be the most powerful cuts or have the most reach, I would think, but they would still be cuts.
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Post by bebut on Dec 26, 2017 21:41:56 GMT
I have been watching the Turkish tv series about Ertugrul on Netflix. I have no idea if the swordsmanship is historically authentic, but it is real close up and dirty--slashing, reverse strikes, head butts. reverse elbows, front kicks. Standard sword is a scimitar design, but one of the 3 Musketeers uses 2 swords, another a huge axe, and the third a panga machete looking sword. Daggers are popular among the women folk and nobles.
Really close up, I would say reverse cuts have their place.
The Crusaders and Mongols have different swords and knives from the Turkmen.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 1:36:52 GMT
Really there's a situation for just about everything. Always Do X or Never Do Y is just about guaranteed to get you exceptions. It's really about fitting it in to the right context, and there's also a matter of how you do something being as, if not more, important than what you do.
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Post by Cosmoline on Dec 27, 2017 18:36:26 GMT
Another use springs to mind--the reverse grip shows up with longswords as a defensive screen to deflect incoming thrusts. wiktenauer.com/wiki/Gladiatoria_(MS_KK5013)You also see reverse grip used when the sword is thrust as a spear would be. And sometimes a partial reverse grip shows up from ochs, presumably to add thrusting strength to the attack. Bottom line is, your hands should be loose enough to move around as needed depending on the situation. Nothing is set in stone.
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 27, 2017 20:05:41 GMT
Thank you for the link to the Gladitoria. I am gonna have a go examining these.
Excellent point about having hands that can move around. I always imagine that if a home invader came to me as I slept and I had no time to draw my Katana, I could always keep it in the saya and use it as a mini bo staff.It is excellent to see historic similarities
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 28, 2017 7:44:38 GMT
I think a reverse grip with a katana is generally a terrible idea unless it is used in very specialized technical situations, usually involving the thrust where the piercing power can actually be strengthened. Otherwise the sacrifice in the range of motion is just too significant, a katana isn't a tonfa and doesn't benefit as much from being held alongside the length of the arm. A wakizashi could perhaps be a better idea, but you really do sacrifice the finer movements gripping the weapon in such a way so I'd say it's still strategically limited.
But that was all considered as interpreting the idea of 'reverse grip' being held with the kashira 'forwards' rather than 'backwards', if we're talking about reversing the edge for point dominance, this is an excellent posture that carries momentum behind the thrust rather well, although you still sacrifice the advantage of the cut-thrust in favor of a hooking thrust. Each has their uses and can be used extremely effectively depending on circumstance.
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 30, 2017 3:04:03 GMT
I think a reverse grip with a katana is generally a terrible idea unless it is used in very specialized technical situations, usually involving the thrust where the piercing power can actually be strengthened. Otherwise the sacrifice in the range of motion is just too significant, a katana isn't a tonfa and doesn't benefit as much from being held alongside the length of the arm. A wakizashi could perhaps be a better idea, but you really do sacrifice the finer movements gripping the weapon in such a way so I'd say it's still strategically limited. But that was all considered as interpreting the idea of 'reverse grip' being held with the kashira 'forwards' rather than 'backwards', if we're talking about reversing the edge for point dominance, this is an excellent posture that carries momentum behind the thrust rather well, although you still sacrifice the advantage of the cut-thrust in favor of a hooking thrust. Each has their uses and can be used extremely effectively depending on circumstance. You know. I actually came to this same conclusion too. Especially if you have the Kashira in the palm of your off hand, you can generate some very powerful thrusts. But my view on reverse grip is only to be used with a shield, preferably in close quarters like a hallway. I should have added that bit of information
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 30, 2017 6:35:14 GMT
I think a reverse grip with a katana is generally a terrible idea unless it is used in very specialized technical situations, usually involving the thrust where the piercing power can actually be strengthened. Otherwise the sacrifice in the range of motion is just too significant, a katana isn't a tonfa and doesn't benefit as much from being held alongside the length of the arm. A wakizashi could perhaps be a better idea, but you really do sacrifice the finer movements gripping the weapon in such a way so I'd say it's still strategically limited. But that was all considered as interpreting the idea of 'reverse grip' being held with the kashira 'forwards' rather than 'backwards', if we're talking about reversing the edge for point dominance, this is an excellent posture that carries momentum behind the thrust rather well, although you still sacrifice the advantage of the cut-thrust in favor of a hooking thrust. Each has their uses and can be used extremely effectively depending on circumstance. You know. I actually came to this same conclusion too. Especially if you have the Kashira in the palm of your off hand, you can generate some very powerful thrusts. But my view on reverse grip is only to be used with a shield, preferably in close quarters like a hallway. I should have added that bit of information Oh yeah, in the context with the shield in the hallway that is a merciless technique. Seriously, capital idea. I really like flipping the edge around myself for the force generation with thrusts, especially two-handed, and the way the balance shifts is pretty interesting, it's like you switch from a katana to a thrusting sword (maybe that's just in my head, but it feels like it to me). It's actually what got me really interested in the rapier from a physical perspective
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Dec 30, 2017 7:13:12 GMT
You know. I actually came to this same conclusion too. Especially if you have the Kashira in the palm of your off hand, you can generate some very powerful thrusts. But my view on reverse grip is only to be used with a shield, preferably in close quarters like a hallway. I should have added that bit of information Oh yeah, in the context with the shield in the hallway that is a merciless technique. Seriously, capital idea. I really like flipping the edge around myself for the force generation with thrusts, especially two-handed, and the way the balance shifts is pretty interesting, it's like you switch from a katana to a thrusting sword (maybe that's just in my head, but it feels like it to me). It's actually what got me really interested in the rapier from a physical perspective You are the only other person I have known to point it out. But I entirely agree. You get power and you work with the curve
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 30, 2017 15:18:04 GMT
Some years back when I began taking an interest in swords I decided I needed a stick sword with its broader heavier blade suitable for cutting and slashing would be better than my sword canes in case of a melee. So the search was on. Nearly all that I found referenced Zatoichi. I had never heard of him and couldn’t have cared less. I bought two. The smaller one was a big question mark in my mind but after having seen a photo of a mat cut with it I was convinced but not fully, the reason I got two the other being different. Later I found a movie made in 2003(?) of Zatoichi using his reversed grip. I later found another film of them making that film and they clearly showed him using the very smaller sword I bought. In fact they used seven to make the movie. Zatoichi did wonders with that sword and his reverse grip. Up to that point I had been disappointed in the sword’s performance finding it more like a wakizashi than anything else. It is too light too small. The reverse grip made it worse. The only thing that I have found a reversed grip good with is a dagger or knife. It works quite well with a knife and a favourite hold of mine after I learned the technique of how to use it. That is with a dagger/knife but not with a sword. I like the reverse grip with a blade up to about 16”. Greater than that forget it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2017 22:35:34 GMT
You don't need a whole lot of power with a stab / thrust / tsuki. If you just set the katana on a table and walked into the tip you could hurt yourself very badly and that's without any structure aside from gravity and friction. If it was braced or held firmly it would have very little trouble going through you. One thing that you're most likely finding as you're holding the sword with the edge up is establishing a straight line of force through the left hand behind the kashira out through the tip of the kissaki. You'd get the same effect whether the edge is facing up, down, or sideways so long as that line is established. For academic purposes The edge up stab is good for a thrust to the base of the throat, riding the mune along the suprasternal notch. Less likely for the edge to cut into bone and find resistance. If you were thrusting up under the rib cage, you'd want the edge down, again so the unsharpened part of the blade glides along and does not hamper the passage of the tip and edge through tissue. Attachments:
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