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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 4:35:18 GMT
What sword company would be considered the "Albion" of Japanese Swords. Meaning, what sword company makes historically accurate and quality made Japanese or Japanese replica swords, that sell easier than most with at least, most of their value intact and we can access easily own them outside of Japan?
.....or does only actual antique japenese swords fit this description?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Dec 13, 2017 4:52:01 GMT
Maybe Citadel?
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Post by Faldarin on Dec 13, 2017 5:10:39 GMT
I assume you mean outside of almost-full custom jobs as well?
Unfortunately, Blade - there seem to be even less Japanese-style swords that 'keep value' than European style swords. The only ones that I've seen that sell for a good amount of their original prices are discontinued models that were limited editions (whether by choice or accident, see: Hanwei factory fire).
Actual Japanese made blades would be most of what keeps its value over time... with some rare exceptions.
I don't think there's a specific company - just some specific models of Japanese style swords that comprise those rare exceptions... and they're usually impossible to guess which ones are going to be 'good value over time', unfortunately.
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Post by treeslicer on Dec 13, 2017 5:57:49 GMT
Howard Clark. That's the only brand I know of that doesn't seem to depreciate. As far as just individual swords, IMHO, the closer they look to a genuine nihonto, the more you can get for them, but I don't know of any particular brand that does that reliably and predictably. One of the problems is that, until very recently, the Chinese forges haven't been content to simply fold it, forge it, clay it, and quench it, like say, the Usagiya forge that the Kashima sisters run does. They have had to mess about with coarse "Damascus" hada, fancy claying patterns that look like crap, etching it to death, and so on. The farther they get from that, just fold it 15-16 times and trust what the steel will do when plunged into cold water, then do a sashikomi polish, the better the blades look. Another problem is, if somebody in Longquan did make good looking Japanese style blades, how do any of us know who did it? All anyone ever sees are the resellers, and all they ever see are catalog items. Every once in a while they manage to sell a really nice blade by accident. All you have to do is find those. I've managed to score three. I probably owe Saints Michael, Martin, Adrian, Sebastian, and most likely Jude a heckuva lot of candles by now.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 6:46:00 GMT
Adrian - Will check them out. Thanks
Fald - That's what I though. Thanks.
Tree - Yes Howard Clark. Quality and Mega waiting list = More Demand Less Supply = Higher price and higher resale value.
So if you reside outside of Japan you can own an antique Japanese sword found at dealer sites like Nihonto Antiques or antique listings or private sales. However, if we live outside Japan, and wish to buy a katana made in Japan today, in the traditional method from a forge or shops in Japan, we can not, because the katanas are considered "national treasures" and are not allowed to leave Japan?
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Post by treeslicer on Dec 13, 2017 6:59:22 GMT
So if you reside outside of Japan you can own an antique Japanese sword found at dealer sites like Nihonto Antiques or antique listings or private sales. However, if we live outside Japan, and wish to buy a katana made in Japan today, in the traditional method from a forge or shops in Japan, we can not, because the katanas are considered "national treasures" and are not allowed to leave Japan? Not true. The only swords restricted from export are 105 specific national treasures. All are koto. Some makers of gendaito and shinsakuto are considered living national treasures, but their swords are exportable.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 7:06:54 GMT
So, If a collector living outside of Japan, wanted a sword made say in the last 5 years and it was made in a Japanese forge using historical and traditional methods, we could buy it and bring it to a country like the U.S.?
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Post by treeslicer on Dec 13, 2017 7:20:13 GMT
So, If a collector living outside of Japan, wanted a sword made say in the last 5 years and it was made in a Japanese forge using historical and traditional methods, we could buy it and bring it to a country like the U.S.? Yes. Here's an example, www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/order.html#Request%20for%20New%20Sword Some other smiths are cheaper, and some resold gendaito/shinsakuto intended for tameshigiri to begin with may go as low as $2500, but $4500 would be average for those, and $6K up to $10K is more what you should expect (roughly 100 yen to the dollar). One of the paradoxes of buying nihonto is that sometimes older is cheaper than newer.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 7:34:03 GMT
Tree - Thank you. That is awe inspiring information to me!
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Post by treeslicer on Dec 13, 2017 7:43:24 GMT
Here's what, IMHO, a superlative sword looks like. www.sho-shin.com/chiknor.html Robert Cole just got it in at Sho-Shin, and only wants about what a 2nd. Lt. makes in a year for it. Why the heck can't some Chinese swordmaker sell stuff like this for a tenth of that?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 8:00:19 GMT
Mega agree! Or why doesn't a traditional Japanese forge open up in the U.S? Or what if Albion worked with a Japanese Master to have a Japenese Division? Or why doesn't someone like Howard Clark expand his operation to produce more swords, "Albion" priced?
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Post by treeslicer on Dec 13, 2017 8:03:37 GMT
Mega agree! Or why doesn't a traditional Japanese forge open up in the U.S? Or what if Albion worked with a Japanese Master to have a Japenese Division? Or why doesn't someone like Howard Clark expand his operation to produce more swords, "Albion" priced? Yup. " 'Tis a puzzlement." Happy Holidays!
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Post by Faldarin on Dec 13, 2017 13:03:40 GMT
Or why doesn't a traditional Japanese forge open up in the U.S? I think that hits the nail on the head, fortunately or unfortunately. Japanese swordsmithing is a tradition. Katana aren't just made 'at one place' either for the most part. They pass between several hands from start to finish. All of this, on top of 'political correctness' today, makes it very unlikely. I won't go into more details to keep politics off the board, but, that would play a big role. (Some people would yell Cultural Appropriation. Please don't start a flame war, I don't agree with it, just clarifying.)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2017 13:25:30 GMT
Got it. Yeah and if we went deeper we all know that many world wide, regional sword designs, like many items, were influenced and made by different regions and cultures yet branded as originating from only one culture or region i.e. Japanese sword designs influenced by at least Chinese designs, English swords influenced and made in and by spanish, germanic, french, etc. regions and cultures. If you go back far enough, all swords originated from what?.....a sharp stick! Haha!....eh.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Dec 13, 2017 14:12:16 GMT
I guess most people don't remember Atrim katana line? It was a while ago and short lived as there were problems like unfortunately with many projects. They weren't really popular though and they were expensive, people preferred their European Atrims. The "Albion" bracket for Japanese swords is very limited market. I'd say Bugei is one of the best options. Kaneie used to be one but they've had lots of problems over the years. Don't know their current situation, as far as I know at the moment they don't supply anybody. Historical accuracy is not something "katana crowd" is interested in. I tried to push that idea some years ago but there seem to be 0 interest towards it... Mega agree! Or why doesn't a traditional Japanese forge open up in the U.S? Or what if Albion worked with a Japanese Master to have a Japenese Division? Or why doesn't someone like Howard Clark expand his operation to produce more swords, "Albion" priced? I think most of them like living in their home country. There is also the language barrier, work permits, getting all the stuff set up in new country, getting supply chain set up, etc. etc. (in short, it is not very easy) I think Fusataro is one of the few that has done lots of stuff internationally: tamahagane.com/schools-of-arts/the-master-instructors/fusataro/There have been historically few smiths that moved to another country, Brazil had few Japanese swordsmiths in the early-mid 1900's, W.B. Tanner wrote excellent article about them to JSSUS Vol.49-3 In my opinion there is not too much competition in "Albion" range Japanese swords because they do not sell well. It is very tricky market, hard to get into that one.
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Post by Verity on Dec 13, 2017 14:37:34 GMT
I’m with Jussi. As I own Nihonto I particularly look for Nihonto-esque qualities when looking for reproduction katana.
1.) I disagree with Adrian. I’ve seen Citadel. As an owner of Nihonto I think they miss the mark pretty big and I can NOT for the life of me understand why they command the price they do. They DO resell pretty decently. Perfectly fine swords but miss the mark as an exacting Nihonto replica.
2.) production models i’d say get close (with caveats): - old model Hanwei Shinto (like mine). Closest geometry to a Nihonto I personally have ever seen. Pre-bohi 2000s era. - Kaneie (Kaneie is discontinued but can be found as a new brand still available in Europe. Cannot remember who). I always wanted a Kaneie Guardian.
3.) CERTAIN Bugei models. Bugei is like the Lexus to Hanwei’s Toyota. They still get things wrong but pretty good.
Now the criteria I use is nuanced... the BIGGEST thing I see people get wrong (in the typical shinogi-zukuri style) is the kissaki shape and the sword’s polish. Kissaki are tricky and you see one of two things: you either get cross-polished or too straight-cut geometric instead of a distinct angle change but still convex. The mune and shinogi-ji area of the kissaki also should have proper form and productions almost never do.
I could go on for hours about this.... truly.
Now... you can totally buy shinsakuto... or a gimei genuine blade, or even a questionable “komonjo” gimei... ( which I have been trying to get my hands on)...
But I argue that “today” we don’t have an Albion of katana... we have either production companies who get too much wrong, cheap chinese forges who get a LOT wrong, or custom makers who are insanely priced (Howard Clark for example).
Always exceptions and sometimes someone puts out a gem, but for the “Albion” Lense to work for me i’d need to see 1.) decent consistent quality 2.) representation of more than just a handful of sugata (almost every single Katana uses Showa sori and shape for the most part... no one making Kamakura sugata, or Nambokucho sugata as production models. Any attempt always lacks the appropriate sori and fumbari
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Post by Verity on Dec 13, 2017 15:19:09 GMT
So, If a collector living outside of Japan, wanted a sword made say in the last 5 years and it was made in a Japanese forge using historical and traditional methods, we could buy it and bring it to a country like the U.S.? Yes. Here's an example, www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/order.html#Request%20for%20New%20Sword Some other smiths are cheaper, and some resold gendaito/shinsakuto intended for tameshigiri to begin with may go as low as $2500, but $4500 would be average for those, and $6K up to $10K is more what you should expect (roughly 100 yen to the dollar). One of the paradoxes of buying nihonto is that sometimes older is cheaper than newer. sometmes. Not always. My Masamitsu would disagree strongly. 😂
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Post by jrock on Dec 13, 2017 18:13:12 GMT
I can vouche for kaneie. I have the Guardian. Superb example of a katana. I would say that citadel could hold the "Albion of katanas". Kaneie would be the "Arms and Armor of katanas" tho. The Samurai workshop still sells them when available and also Kurin Swords, both of which are in Europe. Depdep.com is citadel's website. They will probably be my next purchase.
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Post by Verity on Dec 13, 2017 18:18:48 GMT
I can vouche for kaneie. I have the Guardian. Superb example of a katana. I would say that citadel could hold the "Albion of katanas". Kaneie would be the "Arms and Armor of katanas" tho. The Samurai workshop still sells them when available and also Kurin Swords, both of which are in Europe. Depdep.com is citadel's website. They will probably be my next purchase. Kurin, that’s it. Same as Kaneie (sort of rebranded).
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Post by jrock on Dec 13, 2017 18:25:21 GMT
Come to think of it, Citadels that are offered through cas/hanwei are boring. Blah. But they are the highest priced production katanas so they are kinda like Albion in the aspect.
What us mericans need is for Kaneie to pull itself together are start selling in America again.
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