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Post by Verity on Dec 3, 2017 19:05:16 GMT
Made an interesting observation (based on my own swords) this morning.
Anyone who follows handling and sword dynamics (focusing specifically on double edge medieval type swords for this) knows that Peter Johnsson is a leading expert and has done tons of lectures and has researched oodles into this.
Couple of main points he makes are for longswords a closer PoB to the guard and a forward pivot point closer to the tip makes for a better handling longsword (yes many variables also and I am oversimplifying his assertions some).
For cutting oriented and single handed swords this is a slightly further PoB and a forward pivot point a bit further back from the point.
Interestingly, Atrims are considered some of the best handling swords there are. So I did a bit of anecdotal testing this morning.
Subjectively my Blackwater (Atrim XIIa.4), Atrim XVIa.3, FableBlades’ Master Sword, FableBlades PeaceLily, and Valiant Armoury Malatesta are my “best handling” swords.
Comparatively, while wonderfully handling, my Winter Warden (based on an Albion Baron blade) does not hold a position among my “BEST” handling swords.
So... I wanted to see how my various swords hold up to the “rules” that Peter asserts... I ran checks for balance, PoB, forward and aft pivot and vibration nodes for this set of swords (I may continue this experiment and get more examples and precise measurements depending on how this discussion goes).
What I found:
Winter Warden (unsurprisingly given it is an Albion Baron essentially) conforms pretty closely to Peter’s set of generalities on the placement of these values.
My “best” handling swords do not.
Question 1: Why is this? Why are the best handling swords I own not falling into a set of guidelines discovered by one of the leading sword design experts in the world?
Question 2: Is my subjective judgment of “good handling” wrong? I think this is subjective but I think instinctively, a good handling sword is something people just “feel”.
Question 3: Do my “best handling” swords all share some range of values in common with one another? (Turns out, they anecdotally DO).. while having different PoB, they all share a forward pivot point not at the tip, but actually about 5-6” back from it. And an aft pivot point around 7-8” back from the forward one, and this is (in many cases but not always) generally around 4-5” forward from the center point of the blade. The CoP exists within the position of the forward and aft pivots. This is fascinating but diverges some from Peter’s statements on handling. Particularly with the longswords.
Obviously so many variables in here, mass distribution, distal taper and such, but I find it remarkable that these values seemingly are different than what I am gleaning from studying Peter’s material on this.
What have others found? I am thinking of delving into this more:
What TRULY makes the best handling swords handle the way they do?
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Post by RufusScorpius on Dec 3, 2017 19:19:35 GMT
Interesting. I don't have a scientific answer for you, only my anecdotal observations. I think swords are like shoes, you really need to try them on to see if they "fit" before wearing them. I've handled some swords and firearms that were reported to be the best thing ever in the history of ever (Glock 19 for example), but I didn't like them at all- they felt clumsy or just didn't "fit" my style. Likewise, some other weapons that were reputed to be just so-so turned out to be the best ones I ever owned or handled because they "fit" me (Oniyuri for another example).
So my 2 cents says that it's best to ignore what the experts tell you is perfect for you and go out and find it for yourself. Because if the shoe fits.....you know the rest.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 19:46:51 GMT
Verity - What is a sword "pivot point"?
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Post by Verity on Dec 3, 2017 19:51:27 GMT
Verity - What is a sword "pivot point"? The fulcrums of the blade. An area that seemingly is not moving when you are moving the blade back and forth. How you “measure” forward and aft-most pivots are take the sword between your fingertips (thumb and forefinger if you can minimizing hand contact) as close to the guard with fingertips holding the grip edge to edge. Then move your hand side to side looking at the edge of the blade. There is an area of the blade (most likely toward the tip) that is not making lateral movement. This is the forward pivot point. Now take your fingers and hold the bottom of the grip near the pommel. Repeat. Now the pivot point will have moved, probably somewhere near or forward some from the center of the blade... this is the aft pivot point.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 3, 2017 19:55:49 GMT
I hope it helps:
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 19:56:00 GMT
I was trying to determine the difference between point of balance and pivot points. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 19:56:39 GMT
That really helps! Thanks.
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Post by Verity on Dec 3, 2017 20:00:04 GMT
Good diagrams thanks! I find it easier to measure looking at the edge vs the flat though as the top diagram illustrates. It is easier to “spot” the pivot point by holding the sword 90-degreees on its longitudinal axis and looking for the pivot by watching the edge vs the flat (less surface material to deceive the eye)
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Post by Verity on Dec 3, 2017 20:02:44 GMT
Good diagrams thanks! I find it easier to measure looking at the edge vs the flat though as the top diagram illustrates. It is easier to “spot” the pivot point by holding the sword 90-degreees on its longitudinal axis and looking for the pivot by watching the edge vs the flat (less surface material to deceive the eye) Also to clarify. In the top diagram, forward pivot corresponds to the center position, aft pivot corresponds to the left illustration. Not sure what they call the one on the right, as that is forward of the guard, which I have only ever seen measured in rapiers where the hand is actually usually placed forward of the guard
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 20:13:09 GMT
Is the forward pivot point the same as center of percussion? See Tinker Sword Vid:
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Post by Verity on Dec 3, 2017 20:25:52 GMT
Is the forward pivot point the same as center of percussion? See Tinker Sword Vid: No. Pivots and Center of Percussion are not the same. CoP is actually the same as one of the key harmonic nodes of vibration.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 20:28:35 GMT
Got it.
Pivot Point Vid
Point of Balance
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 3, 2017 20:29:51 GMT
Just kidding, it's the vibration node on the blade when giving the pommel a clap.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 20:41:42 GMT
Haha! Very funny!
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Post by Verity on Dec 3, 2017 20:44:35 GMT
Just kidding, it's the vibration node on the blade when giving the pommel a clap. Yep. GENERALLY that primary node will correspond with CoP. But NOT always. And additionally nodes of vibration aren’t the same as pivots. You have: Balance points Pivot points Harmonic nodes of vibration Then you have CoP which correlates but not exactly THE same as the above. USUALLY it corresponds to a node of vibration.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 3, 2017 21:08:06 GMT
Question 1: Why is this? Why are the best handling swords I own not falling into a set of guidelines discovered by one of the leading sword design experts in the world? There is no universal "best handling". "Best" depends on what you want to do with the sword. As far as pivot points go, I see 3 main patterns in their positioning. Just considering the forward pivot point (IMO, the most important), we can find it: (a) At the tip. This gives very good point control, and is good for cut-and-thrust swords (jian, longsword, some others). (b) About 6"-8" back from the tip (1/4 of the blade). I call this "sabre balance", and it's good for sabres. This is a more cutting oriented balance, while keeping good point control. (c) About 1/3 of the blade back from the tip. "Binding balance". Good for one-handed swords which need to be maneuvered in the bind. E.g., rapiers, where you need to be able to pivot easily about the point of contact against the opposing blade, and arming swords for sword-and-buckler. In addition, there are plenty of swords outside these patterns, some of which have excellent handling. Question 2: Is my subjective judgment of “good handling” wrong? I think this is subjective but I think instinctively, a good handling sword is something people just “feel”. Pivot point at the tip is important for tip control. If you're not playing a tip game to a significant extent, why would you want this? Sabres are usually balanced differently for a reason. Also note that for general feel, overall weight is important. For static feel, POB is important. The feeling of a sword held static in the hand is different from the same sword being swung (and chopping cuts, slicing cuts, and reaching cuts will all feel different, too), from the same sword being shifted to a different angle to get past an opponent's cover. If you like doing <foo> with a sword a lot, you'll think that the swords that handle best doing <foo> are the best-handling.
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Post by Verity on Dec 3, 2017 21:12:45 GMT
Question 1: Why is this? Why are the best handling swords I own not falling into a set of guidelines discovered by one of the leading sword design experts in the world? There is no universal "best handling". "Best" depends on what you want to do with the sword. As far as pivot points go, I see 3 main patterns in their positioning. Just considering the forward pivot point (IMO, the most important), we can find it: (a) At the tip. This gives very good point control, and is good for cut-and-thrust swords (jian, longsword, some others). (b) About 6"-8" back from the tip (1/4 of the blade). I call this "sabre balance", and it's good for sabres. This is a more cutting oriented balance, while keeping good point control. (c) About 1/3 of the blade back from the tip. "Binding balance". Good for one-handed swords which need to be maneuvered in the bind. E.g., rapiers, where you need to be able to pivot easily about the point of contact against the opposing blade, and arming swords for sword-and-buckler. In addition, there are plenty of swords outside these patterns, some of which have excellent handling. Question 2: Is my subjective judgment of “good handling” wrong? I think this is subjective but I think instinctively, a good handling sword is something people just “feel”. Pivot point at the tip is important for tip control. If you're not playing a tip game to a significant extent, why would you want this? Sabres are usually balanced differently for a reason. Also note that for general feel, overall weight is important. For static feel, POB is important. The feeling of a sword held static in the hand is different from the same sword being swung (and chopping cuts, slicing cuts, and reaching cuts will all feel different, too), from the same sword being shifted to a different angle to get past an opponent's cover. If you like doing <foo> with a sword a lot, you'll think that the swords that handle best doing <foo> are the best-handling. I love this response Timo, thank you. Out of curiosity, what do you find best for these? Let’s assume for a second that for longswords we are talking German styles (dobringer, Lichtenauer, Meyer, etc) For single handers let’s use I33 as the baseline. Assuming these styles, what would you say is “best” and what swords do you find best work with this? Given those, how do these values relate?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 3, 2017 21:19:11 GMT
Is the forward pivot point the same as center of percussion? See Tinker Sword Vid: No. Pivots and Center of Percussion are not the same. CoP is actually the same as one of the key harmonic nodes of vibration. For everybody outside swords (sports scientists talking about bats and rackets/racquets, physicists and engineers talking about all sorts of things (steel bars, swords, bats), the pivot point is exactly the same as the centre of percussion. This is an old technical definition; this is the definition used in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_percussionThis usage goes back to the mid-17th century (Mersenne and Huygens were big players): blog.subcaelo.net/ensis/history-centre-percussion/The mis-use of COP to mean other things for swords appears to come into the sword literature via the 19th century "scientific" writers on swords, who weren't as scientific as they hoped to be. Yep. GENERALLY that primary node will correspond with CoP. But NOT always. And additionally nodes of vibration aren’t the same as pivots. You have: Balance points Pivot points Harmonic nodes of vibration Then you have CoP which correlates but not exactly THE same as the above. USUALLY it corresponds to a node of vibration. As the sports people say, the "sweet spot". As well as COP/pivot points and nodes of vibration, the point of maximum restitution (the point of impact where most of the elastic energy temporarily stored in the deformed bat/racket/thing gets delivered to the object being hit rather than being dissipated in the bat/racket) is often important. There was some interesting work on tennis rackets some decades ago where they were trying to spread the COP/PP, node of vibration, and PMR away from each other to get a really big sweet spot. It wouldn't be as "good" as the sweet spot you'd get if they were all together, but it would be much bigger and give more consistent results for hitting slightly away from the best point.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 21:23:52 GMT
More orientation material to Verity's observation....Peter Johnsson Presentation Vid:
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Dec 3, 2017 21:35:52 GMT
I love this response Timo, thank you. Out of curiosity, what do you find best for these? Let’s assume for a second that for longswords we are talking German styles (dobringer, Lichtenauer, Meyer, etc) For single handers let’s use I33 as the baseline. Assuming these styles, what would you say is “best” and what swords do you find best work with this? Given those, how do these values relate? For longswords (including longsword-sized two-handed jian), I like pivot point at the tip. The Albion I33 is supposed to be well-balanced for sword-and-buckler (it has balance (c) above). I haven't tried it in its natural environment. Out of that environment (no buckler), it's IMO inferior in terms of balance (compared to a good sabre, or an arming sword balanced like a sabre). For both of these types, the benefits only become really clear when you're interacting with an opponent. For sabre grip, the benefits are more clear solo - not so much about interacting with an opponent (other than by cutting them). Some full-size swords appear to have pivot points placed without pattern, possibly without care. The main culprit I've seen is Chinese dao - I think because pivot point (w.r.t the grip) doesn't matter much for slicing draw cuts from the shoulder.
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