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Post by Robert in California on Nov 22, 2017 0:38:03 GMT
Watch the old guy...good cuts and nice noto's.
RinC
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Post by Richard Arias on Nov 22, 2017 2:45:23 GMT
WAY better Demo.
Tied with this one
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Post by zabazagobo on Nov 22, 2017 3:15:43 GMT
Not a bad demo, thanks for sharing. Some of the practitioners seemed to have rough luck with making it through, but with more practice they'll just keep getting better.
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Post by zabazagobo on Nov 22, 2017 3:21:25 GMT
WAY better Demo. Tied with this one The second one was a very nice demonstration of technical movement. His cuts were very clean and nice. The synchronized tameshigiri was cool, although there was a bit of hesitation (as there likely would be). That first one though, a bit overdone and theatrical to my taste, but still some very impressive technique in motion. The idea with that one was to approximate a 'battlefield' demonstration if I'm thinking about it right. Do you know more like this one you could share?
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Post by connorclarke on Nov 22, 2017 5:22:01 GMT
Both look like poor imitations. The original OP's videos looks more authentic.
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Post by Richard Arias on Nov 22, 2017 5:29:03 GMT
Actually if you look at Obata Sensei's angles they are far from perfect and clean. But he uses thick blades with niku. You can see target shake and hear stand movement in a lot of his cuts. But this would be the case with most of they used more old school standards swords. As for Saruta Soke... You get that theatrical is kinda the point? Amy demo for public is made for people to see. Saruta Sensei is just better at it than most :) Cutting from Kata. The obstacle course. It shows more skill than just standing there like the OP video. But it's all a well preformed Routine. Watch most Demos and you see the same stuff over and over. I just watched Saruta Sensei perform and being around 70 he cuts half mats now. But similar patterns. But the skill is in the fact that he can still cut to a high standard. But a high standard with a mat cutter Katana I got to see up close. And now him Currently... See what I mean? The guy is super Focused. Same with Obata Sensei I saw him Demo Around '05. Saruta I saw and got to meet a month ago.
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Post by Richard Arias on Nov 22, 2017 5:49:56 GMT
Both look like poor imitations. The original OP's videos looks more authentic. Right... This comes from your experience in Toyama ryu? And Batto Do Competition? The OP video has a lot of bad misses and failures with swords built to cut what they are cutting. And they are not moving. They are standing there and they still are hit or miss... 2:10... 3:15 bad misses with cheater blades under ideal conditions. But this happens I have more misses than success cutting used Japanese tatami. But then I have studied Toyama (Nakamura Ha and now recently Morinaga Ha) and am Currently studying Shinkendo (have in the past and recently found my way back). In the OP video even when they succeed it's not great. At 3:35 you can see he scooped the cut not super bad, but noticeable. I don't try to claim what is "authentic" it's all relative to what your being authentic to... All I know is if the guys in the OP video tried to perform like Saruta or Obata Soke they could not do it. Not many Can it's why the Old School guys are in their Own Class. And the modern standards are just different.
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Post by Richard Arias on Nov 22, 2017 6:02:27 GMT
The Book that started Toyama for me. Where many got their start in the US. People Forget Obata Sensei was the first to Bring Nakamura Ha to the US.
But Nakamura Sensei was the OG. The OP video guys don't come close to this... Who does? Saruta Sensei... who was? Oh that's right the 8th Dan Second Soke of Nakamura Ryu. And Obata Sensei who won the single cutting division at the first two Toyama Tai Kai in the late 70s.
Again this is not to discount the OP video. They are good. But Saruta and Obata Sensei are just on that Rare level that most don't get to. There are a hand full of guys over the past 100 years who have.
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Post by zabazagobo on Nov 22, 2017 6:50:12 GMT
Actually if you look at Obata Sensei's angles they are far from perfect and clean. But he uses thick blades with niku. You can see target shake and hear stand movement in a lot of his cuts. But this would be the case with most of they used more old school standards swords. As for Saruta Soke... You get that theatrical is kinda the point? Amy demo for public is made for people to see. Saruta Sensei is just better at it than most Cutting from Kata. The obstacle course. It shows more skill than just standing there like the OP video. But it's all a well preformed Routine. Watch most Demos and you see the same stuff over and over. I just watched Saruta Sensei perform and being around 70 he cuts half mats now. But similar patterns. But the skill is in the fact that he can still cut to a high standard. But a high standard with a mat cutter Katana I got to see up close. And now him Currently... See what I mean? The guy is super Focused. Same with Obata Sensei I saw him Demo Around '05. Saruta I saw and got to meet a month ago. Saruta's form is impeccable. The first video alone had enough prowess on display, truly a remarkable swordsman. I'm envious you got to observe his technique in person, very cool opportunity. The control he displays is truly impressive, the way his body is in complete harmony with the strike is very professional. Thanks for sharing these and introducing me to this very talented artist, I'll be watching his execution very, very closely, over and over. Re: Obata, although the stand does move and you can perceive some of the slant to the angle, his transitions are quite effective, makes a good argument for a utilitarian blade versus a lighter trick cutter blade in the hands of a practitioner with ample muscle memory. Thanks for sharing these, definitely some of the best demonstrations I've seen.
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Post by zabazagobo on Nov 22, 2017 7:01:57 GMT
The Book that started Toyama for me. Where many got their start in the US. People Forget Obata Sensei was the first to Bring Nakamura Ha to the US. But Nakamura Sensei was the OG. The OP video guys don't come close to this... Who does? Saruta Sensei... who was? Oh that's right the 8th Dan Second Soke of Nakamura Ryu. And Obata Sensei who won the single cutting division at the first two Toyama Tai Kai in the late 70s. Again this is not to discount the OP video. They are good. But Saruta and Obata Sensei are just on that Rare level that most don't get to. There are a hand full of guys over the past 100 years who have. An interesting point, as Nakamura and his disciples emphasized tameshigiri appreciably more than many schools. Their competency in tameshigiri should come as no surprise given the emphasis of the school towards this. Something I've always enjoyed about this school is the focus on the simplicity of the art, that you execute a cut and cut cleanly (the philosophy is much more than this, but the emphasis on the pragmatic is quite admirable). I wonder though how well Toyama-ryū fares in sparring with another style that has focused on a different purpose that still emphasized the strike, such as say Itō-ryū or Kashima Shin-ryū. Arguably Toyama-ryū will have the best tameshigiri performance, yet I wonder how the technical aspect would hold up in a 'duel' scenario. Ideally I'd love to see more competition in the traditional arts to be able to answer these questions. To be able to cut is good, to not be cut is better. How these styles play off of each other is something I'd love to see more of.
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Post by Richard Arias on Nov 22, 2017 7:28:40 GMT
The Book that started Toyama for me. Where many got their start in the US. People Forget Obata Sensei was the first to Bring Nakamura Ha to the US. But Nakamura Sensei was the OG. The OP video guys don't come close to this... Who does? Saruta Sensei... who was? Oh that's right the 8th Dan Second Soke of Nakamura Ryu. And Obata Sensei who won the single cutting division at the first two Toyama Tai Kai in the late 70s. Again this is not to discount the OP video. They are good. But Saruta and Obata Sensei are just on that Rare level that most don't get to. There are a hand full of guys over the past 100 years who have. An interesting point, as Nakamura and his disciples emphasized tameshigiri appreciably more than many schools. Their competency in tameshigiri should come as no surprise given the emphasis of the school towards this. Something I've always enjoyed about this school is the focus on the simplicity of the art, that you execute a cut and cut cleanly (the philosophy is much more than this, but the emphasis on the pragmatic is quite admirable). I wonder though how well Toyama-ryū fares in sparring with another style that has focused on a different purpose that still emphasized the strike, such as say Itō-ryū or Kashima Shin-ryū. Arguably Toyama-ryū will have the best tameshigiri performance, yet I wonder how the technical aspect would hold up in a 'duel' scenario. Ideally I'd love to see more competition in the traditional arts to be able to answer these questions. To be able to cut is good, to not be cut is better. How these styles play off of each other is something I'd love to see more of. Actually there would be surprises on both sides. Saruta Sensei started out in Kendo and didn't learn from Nakamura Sensei until the 80's after Obata Sensei left. So the Ryu Sei Ken guys Spar and are pretty good. But sparring is not tameshigiri and tameshigiri isn't sparring. How you move and cut in sparring is different in your Posture, Distance, Timing ex. So in sparring people like Obata Sensei and Saruta Sensei would be tough to fight because they are experienced in many aspects of the sword. Even Nakamura Sensei studied Kendo and was high Ranked. Tanabe Tetsundo Kaicho is Senior to Both Obata and Saruta Sensei in Rank, Age and Experience. Yet he cuts and spars differently. Tameshigiri is an aspect of sword use not unlike board breaking to a hand art. Its meant to show you a different perspective of a task and give you technical insight. Chanbara demoed by Tanabe Tetsundo Kaicho and his son can show an alternative view of not only a duel but a group fight and being outnumbered... Each changes how you do anything. Not many people like Nakamura, Tanabe, and Saruta Sensei have achieved Skill in Forms, Cutting and Sparring. But even they would not have assumed victory because of their training. Higher percentage Possibly, but after 10 years of Chanbara I can tell you that it's anyone's game in a match.
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Post by connorclarke on Nov 22, 2017 14:14:49 GMT
Both look like poor imitations. The original OP's videos looks more authentic. Right... This comes from your experience in Toyama ryu? And Batto Do Competition? The OP video has a lot of bad misses and failures with swords built to cut what they are cutting. And they are not moving. They are standing there and they still are hit or miss... 2:10... 3:15 bad misses with cheater blades under ideal conditions. But this happens I have more misses than success cutting used Japanese tatami. But then I have studied Toyama (Nakamura Ha and now recently Morinaga Ha) and am Currently studying Shinkendo (have in the past and recently found my way back). In the OP video even when they succeed it's not great. At 3:35 you can see he scooped the cut not super bad, but noticeable. I don't try to claim what is "authentic" it's all relative to what your being authentic to... All I know is if the guys in the OP video tried to perform like Saruta or Obata Soke they could not do it. Not many Can it's why the Old School guys are in their Own Class. And the modern standards are just different. No, it comes from my experience in Tenshin-Ryu Hyouho and another school I'm not allowed to name due to only being allowed one school of discipline in Japan. Toyama Ryu is just basic Iaido and tameshigiri developed for soldiers in WW2. Their techniques are flawed yes, but at least they have the basic postures and zanshin their and not just baseball swinging their cuts like in the couple of videos you posted. Then again, you have a right to your opinion as well which form stands as legitimate I suppose. If there is a subjective claim to each schools form and techniques.
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Post by Richard Arias on Nov 22, 2017 17:07:37 GMT
Right... This comes from your experience in Toyama ryu? And Batto Do Competition? The OP video has a lot of bad misses and failures with swords built to cut what they are cutting. And they are not moving. They are standing there and they still are hit or miss... 2:10... 3:15 bad misses with cheater blades under ideal conditions. But this happens I have more misses than success cutting used Japanese tatami. But then I have studied Toyama (Nakamura Ha and now recently Morinaga Ha) and am Currently studying Shinkendo (have in the past and recently found my way back). In the OP video even when they succeed it's not great. At 3:35 you can see he scooped the cut not super bad, but noticeable. I don't try to claim what is "authentic" it's all relative to what your being authentic to... All I know is if the guys in the OP video tried to perform like Saruta or Obata Soke they could not do it. Not many Can it's why the Old School guys are in their Own Class. And the modern standards are just different. No, it comes from my experience in Tenshin-Ryu Hyouho and another school I'm not allowed to name due to only being allowed one school of discipline in Japan. Toyama Ryu is just basic Iaido and tameshigiri developed for soldiers in WW2. Their techniques are flawed yes, but at least they have the basic postures and zanshin their and not just baseball swinging their cuts like in the couple of videos you posted. Then again, you have a right to your opinion as well which form stands as legitimate I suppose. If there is a subjective claim to each schools form and techniques. So you live in Japan? It's funny you name a style with a lose organization with dojos I can't find in the US our Europe really.... funny how it's mostly just web stuff and YouTube videos. Also you mentioned owning a lot of EBay swords... Those are never allowed in Japan. Literally the OP video has them standing there swinging at mats and failing half the time. Saruta Sensei shows way more zanshin... And Obata Sensei on the opposite end of the technical preference spectrum shows speed, power and control. He even shows four directional cutting which many can't do. His transitional ability is way above average. From your comments you don't seem trained or in the unlikely event you are train in a dojo that does not focus on cutting or sparring to really have a base of experience in what your trying to comment on. Muso Shiden and Muso Jikiden Iai people can tell you the technical roots of Toyama. But Ryu Sei Ken and Shinkendo are different... Much more detailed because both men moved beyond where they started. But again how would you know that never training in either. I'm sorry to put you on the spot. But your a Name less and faceless guy that makes the comments you see from YouTube trolls. And when asked to back it up you provide nothing but vague and unverifiable information. You talk about experience in various aspects yet I can find no trace of you doing or posting anything but comments. I am not a Master. I will never be as good as the guys in the OP video most likely. But I am a member and dojo secretary of a dojo in their Organization... I am a student and a Jr Instructor... So unless you can provide some beef to back up your claims I ask to please stop the trolling of men who have lifetimes of experience in Martial Arts. Attachments:
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Post by Richard Arias on Nov 22, 2017 17:16:54 GMT
Actually if you look at Obata Sensei's angles they are far from perfect and clean. But he uses thick blades with niku. You can see target shake and hear stand movement in a lot of his cuts. But this would be the case with most of they used more old school standards swords. As for Saruta Soke... You get that theatrical is kinda the point? Amy demo for public is made for people to see. Saruta Sensei is just better at it than most Cutting from Kata. The obstacle course. It shows more skill than just standing there like the OP video. But it's all a well preformed Routine. Watch most Demos and you see the same stuff over and over. I just watched Saruta Sensei perform and being around 70 he cuts half mats now. But similar patterns. But the skill is in the fact that he can still cut to a high standard. But a high standard with a mat cutter Katana I got to see up close. And now him Currently... See what I mean? The guy is super Focused. Same with Obata Sensei I saw him Demo Around '05. Saruta I saw and got to meet a month ago. Saruta's form is impeccable. The first video alone had enough prowess on display, truly a remarkable swordsman. I'm envious you got to observe his technique in person, very cool opportunity. The control he displays is truly impressive, the way his body is in complete harmony with the strike is very professional. Thanks for sharing these and introducing me to this very talented artist, I'll be watching his execution very, very closely, over and over. Re: Obata, although the stand does move and you can perceive some of the slant to the angle, his transitions are quite effective, makes a good argument for a utilitarian blade versus a lighter trick cutter blade in the hands of a practitioner with ample muscle memory. Thanks for sharing these, definitely some of the best demonstrations I've seen. Both times when I saw Obata Sensei Demo in 05' and Saruta Sensei last month it was a little bit of a fanboy moment. They are equal skill, yet different take and preference on most everything. Obata Sensei has technical preference equivalent to a Hot Rod. Saruta Sensei is like a grand prix sports car, not lacking in power, but just a different way about him. Both show Nakamura influence, but mark them selves masters on equal standing by doing what he did with Shu Ha Ri. He created Nakamura Ryu and them Shinkendo and Ryu Sei Ken. People have opinions good and bad of both Masters. But preference and style aside both men walk the walk witch most of their critics don't. Join a dojo man.. Don't just watch... Discover :)
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Post by 28shadow on Nov 22, 2017 20:13:42 GMT
Richard Arias I very much enjoyed those videos, especially of Sorote. Unlike many people who cut and wear dark or black colors he was wearing brighter colors and I could easily see what his feet, legs, arms and hips were doing. Also helps that his cuts were super nice. Thank you very much for sharing.
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Post by Richard Arias on Nov 22, 2017 22:50:42 GMT
Richard Arias I very much enjoyed those videos, especially of Sorote. Unlike many people who cut and wear dark or black colors he was wearing brighter colors and I could easily see what his feet, legs, arms and hips were doing. Also helps that his cuts were super nice. Thank you very much for sharing. Your welcome. Mitsuhiro Saruta Sensei is a Legend. He was the original holder of the guiness senbongiri (1,000 cuts) record. He trained Isao Machi and look at the feats he pulls off. If the nearest Ryu Sei Ken Dojo wasn't 2 hours away I would train there. It's a good system with nice people involved. To many people want to be "right" and be seen as people of "authority" its why there are not more competitions (that and they cost a lot to hold). But people need to say "different, but interesting" more often. I sat there and performed a Kodachi Kata in a Long sword event wearing an Aikido Gi with a Kaku Obi and my Wrestling shoes. I placed 2nd (out of 5 so it's no huge victory) and from other Ryu Sei Ken guys had so many questions and we had nerdy conversation About it. Even Saruta Sensei said "Interesting".... Which I'll take as a good sign but my score was only a 90/120 so I got a D if we are being real. My avatar is me in Chudan after my Kata which was 4 direction cutting. Saruta Sensei is a very nice man taking time to greet, talk and thank us (my Sensei, Myself and my Sempai) for coming out and Not many people of his Status are so Nice and approachable. Obata Sensei also a Legend. But I have not yet met him as a student only a spectator. So maybe later this year I can remedy that. But I respect his experience and what he puts out there. He has achieved a lot and even if I don't agree with everything I still try to understand and respect his view. I have worn so many hats in the martial arts world it's Impossible for me to be a "Style Elitist " or a "Style Legalist" as my Sifu would call such people. :) They are amazing guys to watch. But in large part because the sword is their life and they devote do much to it. It's not just something they do on the side.
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Post by connorclarke on Nov 23, 2017 13:35:00 GMT
No, it comes from my experience in Tenshin-Ryu Hyouho and another school I'm not allowed to name due to only being allowed one school of discipline in Japan. Toyama Ryu is just basic Iaido and tameshigiri developed for soldiers in WW2. Their techniques are flawed yes, but at least they have the basic postures and zanshin their and not just baseball swinging their cuts like in the couple of videos you posted. Then again, you have a right to your opinion as well which form stands as legitimate I suppose. If there is a subjective claim to each schools form and techniques. So you live in Japan? It's funny you name a style with a lose organization with dojos I can't find in the US our Europe really.... funny how it's mostly just web stuff and YouTube videos. Also you mentioned owning a lot of EBay swords... Those are never allowed in Japan. Literally the OP video has them standing there swinging at mats and failing half the time. Saruta Sensei shows way more zanshin... And Obata Sensei on the opposite end of the technical preference spectrum shows speed, power and control. He even shows four directional cutting which many can't do. His transitional ability is way above average. From your comments you don't seem trained or in the unlikely event you are train in a dojo that does not focus on cutting or sparring to really have a base of experience in what your trying to comment on. Muso Shiden and Muso Jikiden Iai people can tell you the technical roots of Toyama. But Ryu Sei Ken and Shinkendo are different... Much more detailed because both men moved beyond where they started. But again how would you know that never training in either. I'm sorry to put you on the spot. But your a Name less and faceless guy that makes the comments you see from YouTube trolls. And when asked to back it up you provide nothing but vague and unverifiable information. You talk about experience in various aspects yet I can find no trace of you doing or posting anything but comments. I am not a Master. I will never be as good as the guys in the OP video most likely. But I am a member and dojo secretary of a dojo in their Organization... I am a student and a Jr Instructor... So unless you can provide some beef to back up your claims I ask to please stop the trolling of men who have lifetimes of experience in Martial Arts. You're a member of Rising Sun dojo. That's a Mcdojo formed by a power rangers actor right? Is it the green/white ranger? I forget.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 23, 2017 14:52:35 GMT
My favorite demos are of those swordsmen who are smooth in all their movements. Some demos on YouTube show (Shodan or under level folks?) the swordsman either moving too slow to be realistic. Or too stop&go like a robot. But then again long ago, I was a ballroom dancing enthusiast and am probably biased thusly. Still the swordsmen who I enjoy watching are the ones who flow live a river from one move to another, in all their movements. (not that I qualify to even carry the shoes of most of them...one has to respect folks who devote a lot of time and effort into obsolete sports. (or obsolete design motorcycles like Harleys :-))
RinC
(sitting member of the Kung Pow Chicken Ryu)
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Post by Richard Arias on Nov 23, 2017 18:14:25 GMT
So you live in Japan? It's funny you name a style with a lose organization with dojos I can't find in the US our Europe really.... funny how it's mostly just web stuff and YouTube videos. Also you mentioned owning a lot of EBay swords... Those are never allowed in Japan. Literally the OP video has them standing there swinging at mats and failing half the time. Saruta Sensei shows way more zanshin... And Obata Sensei on the opposite end of the technical preference spectrum shows speed, power and control. He even shows four directional cutting which many can't do. His transitional ability is way above average. From your comments you don't seem trained or in the unlikely event you are train in a dojo that does not focus on cutting or sparring to really have a base of experience in what your trying to comment on. Muso Shiden and Muso Jikiden Iai people can tell you the technical roots of Toyama. But Ryu Sei Ken and Shinkendo are different... Much more detailed because both men moved beyond where they started. But again how would you know that never training in either. I'm sorry to put you on the spot. But your a Name less and faceless guy that makes the comments you see from YouTube trolls. And when asked to back it up you provide nothing but vague and unverifiable information. You talk about experience in various aspects yet I can find no trace of you doing or posting anything but comments. I am not a Master. I will never be as good as the guys in the OP video most likely. But I am a member and dojo secretary of a dojo in their Organization... I am a student and a Jr Instructor... So unless you can provide some beef to back up your claims I ask to please stop the trolling of men who have lifetimes of experience in Martial Arts. You're a member of Rising Sun dojo. That's a Mcdojo formed by a power rangers actor right? Is it the green/white ranger? I forget. Actually no Rising Sun Karate in Arizona is a different dojo. But your response says everything. I hope now people will realize your like the millions of social media trolls. A whole lot of talk but no action. I actually train in 3 different dojo currently. You? Oh yeah the Google and YouTube dojo.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 23, 2017 20:33:23 GMT
Say Richard, no hakama? Robert
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