Uhlan
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Posts: 3,101
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Post by Uhlan on Nov 9, 2021 17:57:19 GMT
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Post by DeuxiemeVoltigeur on Jan 17, 2023 17:40:39 GMT
You know, the picture of those two supposedly and valuated Prussian HC sabres has me frustrated anytime I see them. It shows how easily people just assume what something is and don't even do research. And top of that how easily other people then just take it for the truth (no disrespect to you @uhlan).  The sabres respectively called HC M1819 and 1815 are Dutch! First one is the holy grail of sabres, the M1813 Heavy Cavalry sabre no. 1 and the other the M1813 HC no. 2. Any chance this can be corrected? |
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,101
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 22, 2023 5:45:26 GMT
Maybe you could turn it around.
The Dutch at that time didn't have any sword production industry to speak of and these early Dutch types, at least that is my understanding, most of them if not all, came from German sources, that is to say, mainly from Solingen.
It can very well be that the Dutch made do, or had to, with Prussian surplus in those early days after the Napoleonic wars had ended and the whole continent was in ruins.
Would be typical, as these would come quite a lot cheaper compared to designing, ordering and having to pay (ouch) for new stuff. (LOL)
Cheers.
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Post by DeuxiemeVoltigeur on Jan 23, 2023 9:53:04 GMT
I am afraid you are not getting my point. The two swords are from some price book on swords and the author clearly had no knowledge on the swords and simply called them Prussian. They even bear Dutch markings/stamps.... besides that these models are unique there is no other countries who used these specific models. They may have been inspired by other countries and manufactured outside of the Netherlands but they are truly unique to the Dutch. It is a shame we don't have sources that verify the origin of the design, where they were made and so on.
Btw: saying the Dutch had no sword production industry is not correct. The Dutch had various sword making factories in the Netherlands and Belgium. Not a lot is know about them but they are mentioned in sources (For example Geisweit van der Netten).
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,101
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 25, 2023 11:36:43 GMT
I stand corrected and have edited accordingly.
What is depicted are indeed Dutch swords, though what is called the Dutch M1813 No 1 seems to be a direct descendant of the Prussian M1819 Russian.
About manufacturing: I know there was serious production in Liege (Luik), but what I meant to say is that not only Dutch production but production everywhere after the war was a shambles for some time. It takes time to rebuild.
Of course there may have been some other manufacturing going on in Holland, but it must have been on a (too) small scale since like you said ,,Not a lot is know about them but they are mentioned in sources (For example Geisweit van der Netten). ''
This may indicate that the main (serious) source was Luik, which had been a production centre of quality and could produce in quantity for ages and ages already. In a later stage a lot if not all stuff needed was imported from Solingen as far as I know, which may also be a clue that local Dutch production was unable to fulfill the needs of an Army. Solingen could also undercut any rivals qua price, production time and quantity.
Thanks for pointing out my mistake.
Cheers.
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Post by DeuxiemeVoltigeur on Jan 25, 2023 15:38:51 GMT
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. You are very welcome  . It is a difficult topic for sure. A gray area with a lot of unknowns. Hopefully we will one day find out a bit more about this. One thing I would really love to find out is where the design of my all-time favorite, the Dutch LC no. 3 originates.... Puype (1984) simply states it as M1814 but has no sources to back this. Teupken (1823) even states that the model hasn't been issued yet at the time of writing and other sources hint towards this not happening until about 1827 (earliest stamps on LC3s). Topic for another time, am working on a big research on the matter for quite some while now. |
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,101
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 26, 2023 9:03:36 GMT
I go for what Sabels.net says about the N0 3. It fits in with what is said on DB about the Prussian M1819 Russian.
Has a date much later than the real date it was imported and issued etc. Confusion reigns and old records (if there were any) are long gone.
I asked this same question to the guys over at Sabel.net and they told me they didn't know either and had to ask the Museum.
Museum didn't know sempr!ni about nothing either, so there you go.
There may be research going on in this realm, but I don't know about it.
By all purposes the entire field seems to be quite dead over here.
It is not for nothing the Museum auctioned off its contents. Nobody over there cares anymore about the stuff is my impression and getting rid of all that rusty oldtimer crap and the oldtimers and raking in lots of money while doing some destruction of Dutch history at the same time, is what it is all about these days it seems. Only old people who had a ,,real'' education, done long ago, know some stuff from before WWII.
Ask any youngster and some don't even know know there was this event some of the old nutters call WWII. And if they do they don't care.
No education and history revised and dumbed down according to the rules laid down by our Marxist overlords gets you a country ( also a word much frowned upon as we should enjoy being ,,World citizens'' (see where that goes?), gets one a nation (oops) full of sheeple and zombies. And that is what they want.
Easy to handle bug munching slaves who own nothing and are ,,happy''.
Sabres and the like do not quite fit the narrative du jour.
May get you on the ,,undesirables'' list.
I can go on like this for days.
Cheers.
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. 
Things have changed!