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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 11, 2017 2:25:18 GMT
This was the Standard sword of the Spanish Cavalry and some mounted artillery units from 1918 onwards. It's official model year is 1907, however it didn't enter official production until 1918, with some units retaining the earlier M1895 into the 1920's. It was prototyped by German forges, and the swords with those markings are extremely rare, however many simply assume them to the normal variant. There were two versions of the sword once it entered official Spanish use, a variant for officers and a troopers version. The officers has a plated hilt and one nut holding the grip slabs on, As well as a shorter 32" inch blade, As opposed to the normal troopers 34" inch blade. Within the two main versions there are 4 variants. There is one marked with the Sigil of the Spanish Cavalry, two crossed swords and lances, with the Spanish tricolor hanging off each of the lances, one with an unmarked guard, (these are though to have been made during the Spanish civil war) and finally one with a black bowl and the Francoist eagle, and then a later Francoist sword with a non combat blade. There are officers versions of all of these swords as well. And now on to the actual sword  ~《 The Blade 》~ The blade is straight, comparatively thin when compared to earlier swords, has a pleasing profile taper and a nicely shaped, acute but not needle like tip. It has a single square shaped fuller on either side, And a very thin fuller on the spine of the blade near the tip. It is fairly stiff, however in my opinion it is too flexible to give me confidence in mounted combat, however I think for an unmounted officer this would be an excellent cut and thrust. The point is very easy to control and the whole sword, while being somewhat heavy for it's length acts as an extension of your wrist, and isn't tiring to use or drill with. ~《 The Guard 》~ The guard will stop anything short of a bullet. It contributes greatly to the weight of the sword and is an extremely robust affair, with a thick body and rolled edges. Most of them were either polished steel or have a sort of gold finish to them, aside from the Franco swords with are black. The gaurd is also very aesthetically pleasing, And is dictated to the right hand. It is a very simple, strong, yet elegant design. ~《 The Grip 》~ The Grip is very nicely designed, if not a little round. It is checkered walnut and complements the open hand grip very nicely, giving support to the lower fingers and palm of your hand. Not much to say here, but it's still nice ~《 The Scabbard 》~ The scabbard has an unusual design with two staple rings and one ring, clearly made for wearing on the saddle. It is robust and painted black. Very sharp looking. ~《 In conclusion 》~ I like the M1895 more. I also like curved swords more in general though. I really like the design of the sword, It's a very nice light cavalry sword clearly made for the times of hit and run. Would it stand up to a cavalry melee? Probably not. Would it stand up to hit and run cavalry tactics? I think so. I like this design over the British P1908 as it's more of a sword and not a sharp iron bar.       |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 11, 2017 3:16:54 GMT
Nice photos. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by Afoo on Nov 11, 2017 3:41:04 GMT
~《 The Guard 》~ The guard will stop anything short of a bullet. It contributes greatly to the weight of the sword and is an extremely robust affair, with a thick body and rolled edges. Most of them were either polished steel or have a sort of gold finish to them, aside from the Franco swords with are black. The gaurd is also very aesthetically pleasing, And is dictated to the right hand. It is a very simple, strong, yet elegant design. I seem to recall that the guard was symmetrical - but its been a while since I had one. Either way, nice review. I quite like this pattern as well - its aethetically pleasing - more so than the 1908 IMO. We had one of the Franco ones, but I like yours better ^^ I would disagree with your assessment of it as a cut and thrust though - its pretty light. I think it would be a marginal cutter on horseback, but on foot I would argue its too light, especially with the thick profile. I mean, technically it will cut - but really I would say the cut is the last resort - or if you are on a horse and can make use of the added momentum to golf club someone on the way past but thats just my recollections of a pattern which has left my collection a long time ago. I do have my French 1882 Cav sword (mounted on 1896 hilt) which is similar. It goes from 2.8 cm wide at the base to 1.5 at the tip. Even then the cutting power is marginal - more of a deterrent or last-ditch windmill flail if all goes south. Against a determined attacker I do not have faith it would do anything but annoy them. |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 11, 2017 3:52:31 GMT
Afoo - Definitely the cut is a last resort. I hadn't meant to imply otherwise, though I shouldn't have been as vague as I was. Oopsys I would think that horseback fighting would place more stress on a blade, however I can see otherwise as well. I would personally prefer a heavier blade. Pgandy - Thanks for the comment |
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harrybeck
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Post by harrybeck on Nov 11, 2017 5:46:58 GMT
I agree, very nice.
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Post by Afoo on Nov 11, 2017 6:11:54 GMT
Afoo - Definitely the cut is a last resort. I hadn't meant to imply otherwise, though I shouldn't have been as vague as I was. Oopsys I would think that horseback fighting would place more stress on a blade, however I can see otherwise as well. I would personally prefer a heavier blade. Pgandy - Thanks for the comment :) I would rather use it on horseback than not at all :P It may put stress on the blade, but I bet than your hand will break first before the blade anyway :P Have you tried cutting with it though? Would be curious to see how it actually fairs. All this is pure speculation - at least on my end as I am at a lack of both horses and hostile tribes peoples to cut (though sometimes my students do make me wonder...) |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 11, 2017 6:18:41 GMT
Afoo - I haven't tried cutting with it but I don't think it would be super bad, certainly I like it could open up guards perhaps. Certainly the weight of the basket would make it punch through just about any Morrocan who wants to cut you down  |
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Post by bfoo2 on Nov 11, 2017 6:38:02 GMT
Great review Jordan! This is one of my favourite sword patterns from the era. I like the handling (it's effectively a modern-era take on the rapier). But even more so I like that while the design is unconventional they didn't overthink it. The engineering is simple but effective: full-width tang, screw-on wood grips, screw-on pommel-cap (if you can call it that?) and a simple bowl guard. I also like the little "nubs" on the blade that rest against the guard and act as blade shoulders. Clever idea! More importantly though it still looks like a sword. They neither went overboard with ergonomic grips like the Prussian M1889 freak and the British P1908/12, nor did the slap on frilly excessive decorations like the French 1896s. It's straightforward, simple and businesslike. I imagine by this time even the conservative cavalry commanders realized that the days of cavalry melees were over. A hit-and-run charge into the an infantry line or even a machine-gun position could still be effective if delivered from the flanks where massed firepower can't be brought to bear. And of course spearing fleeing infantry is always useful. However if bodies of cavalry stood around too long fighting a melee they'd be eaten by rifle-fire (not to mention quick-fire field artillery) I've owned both the Spanish 1907 and a British 1912 officer (which I take as similar to an 1908 trooper), and my experience is the opposite of yours. My 1907 is light and handles like a rapier. My 1912 feels significantly heavier and has a more powerful swing. Remember that while the P1908/1912 are the archetypal "pointy stick" swords, they are not as heavily fullered as the 1907 and have more of an ovoid cross-section at the foible. To compensate they stuck on a large metal pommel (which the 1907 lacks). My 1912 is a post-WWII production and so could differ from WWI-era weapons. However as far as I can tell from pictures, then shallower fullers, ovoid-section foible and large pommel are still present in WWI examples. I suspect that the P1907 (and French 1896) are atypical for "hand lances". Most of the ones I've handled (French 1854, Italian 1871, Swedish 1893, British 1912, US 1913 "Patton") are quite heavy and would be at best clunky and unwieldy on foot (although whether the Italian and Patton constitute hand-lances is open for debate). I suspect the added weight would be useful as a stouter defense in melee fighting, and be harder for defenders to parry out of the way. Of course, both of these factors likely diminished in importance as modern firearms developed.  Brit P1912 foible. Note relatively shallow fullers and unfullered foible (of ovoid profile)  Brith P1912 pommel. Very large and adds considerable weight |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 11, 2017 7:48:22 GMT
Thanks for comment and P1908 comparison pics Honestly, I love the engineering behind the P1908. But as an utter devotee to the cut I can't enjoy it as a sword. I do think it is a good sword for the era, as is the 1907 and Patton. My comment of it not being able to survive a melee was meant to imply that it was a sword of the era and should be assessed as such. I think it's one of the better swords to come out of the turn of the century. |
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Post by bfoo2 on Nov 12, 2017 4:15:06 GMT
Yeah, I agree that the 1907 is one of the better designs from that era for the aforementioned reasons. You can also bag 'em for fairly cheap so they're a great bargain for what they are (for comparison I recently sold one of these for around $150 if I recall correctly. The cheapest good-condition P1908 I can find is $850CDN!)
Like you, I'm not too big on hand-lances in general. I like their handling, I like the functional sensible aesthetic and I respect their design philosophy; however I'm just not impressed. In my mind it's easy to make a sharp pointy stick light in the hand, so the handling on these things never surprises me no matter how good it is.
On the other hand, crafting a formidable cutter that's both weighty and stout, AND nimble (and with acceptable point control to boot) strikes me as more of an achievement.
Also, did you clean this one up yourself? (It looks like it has less rust on it than it should given the pitting on the tip of the blade). If so- nice work!
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 13, 2017 20:53:59 GMT
I've known two men, both now deceased, who went to war on horseback with swords at their sides; one British, the other Polish. The British fellow was in Palestine taking part in the last mounted operation of WWII. Neither one gave me their thoughts on the use of swords, unfortunately.
But I would expect that all cavalry commanders held out hope for some last great reason-to-be for man and horse on the battlefield. That is, as a cavalry. There were still a lot of horses used in WWII, mostly for draft purposes, however. At any rate, the future of horse cavalry was a hot topic in 1900 and contemporary experiences suggested that the enemy had to play fair before cavalry was useful as horse soldiers, as opposed to mere mounted infantry. But the Boers refused to play fair. A frequent conclusion was that not only horse cavalry still useful, it was seriously lacking in numbers, at least where it counted, although some of the claims made seem a little exaggerated. Unfortunately, there seems to have been relatively little mention of new sword designs from that period (the fifteen years before WWI). Indeed, the French went to war in 1939 with sabers introduced over a hundred years earlier.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 5:22:59 GMT
The Polish cavalry of WWII were primarily acting as mounted infantry. Lancers of a few countries, rode into the 20th century.
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 14, 2017 11:49:14 GMT
By the way, the Spanish 1907 sword is still being manufactured by WKC.
None of the ex-cavalrymen I met ever discussed the war, although one confirmed that he was with the 2nd Household Cavalry Regiment, which did not have horses. But everyone was talking about the Olympics, two of them having ridden in the Olympics, one even in the 1936 Olympics. I didn't exactly have much to contribute. But everyone needs an audience.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 13:10:31 GMT
The US Horse Marines of China patrolled, escorted and paraded with their Pattons during the 1930s.
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 14, 2017 14:25:37 GMT
And supposedly the army out of Ft. Meyer ran the veterans out of town (Washington) with their swords along with tanks. I guess we've never really had much respect for veterans.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 14, 2017 20:04:45 GMT
When needed a soldier is a hero. Later when not and a new generation of politicians come in the older generation of soldiers are in the way, promises forgotten. That incident in D.C. went by several names; the Bonus Army is good enough. The depression was on and people were hurting for money. The veterans had been promised a bonus, but wanted it then and not at the later promised date. Thousands had gone to D.C. and made a shanty town and were disrupting things. The police killed some vets, but were not up to the job of removing them. So President Hoover brought the army in. "Shanty Town" was burned and the protestors removed. GEN MacArthur was the CO. I don’t know if swords were involved but he had tanks.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Mar 16, 2019 20:10:02 GMT
Afoo - I haven't tried cutting with it but I don't think it would be super bad, certainly I like it could open up guards perhaps. Certainly the weight of the basket would make it punch through just about any Morrocan who wants to cut you down Have you since had the chance to cut with one of these? Have your over all thoughts on the sword remained the same? I've tossed around the idea of picking one up. They are so affordable and clean examples are abundant. Also, post 1,000! Do I get a sticker or something? |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 17, 2019 1:08:00 GMT
Afoo - I haven't tried cutting with it but I don't think it would be super bad, certainly I like it could open up guards perhaps. Certainly the weight of the basket would make it punch through just about any Morrocan who wants to cut you down Have you since had the chance to cut with one of these? Have your over all thoughts on the sword remained the same? I've tossed around the idea of picking one up. They are so affordable and clean examples are abundant. Also, post 1,000! Do I get a sticker or something? My thoughts haven't changed too much, I think it continues a trend of Spanish cavalry arms becoming very light. That said, It did apparently see combat at the battle of Mt Annual, which saw heavy cavalry action, and I do have a suspicion that the lightening of Spanish cavalry arms has something to do with colonial fighting, when to do with Spain did not take place with such swords as the tulwar and kaskara as it did with the British, but instead with machetes and smaller swords. That's just a theory. Looking at some nymcha and flyssa I would want to arm my men, if I were an officer with the older 1860. |
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Post by reeselightning on Jun 10, 2021 21:57:30 GMT
I have one that was given to me by a family friend, I enjoy the blade and beleave it could cut sufficiently to use the edge to gain advantage in combat on foot. I plan to do some test cutting to see the highest extent of its edge performance. I have accidentally strenght tested it with a misguided full swing hit a big ass pine tree on the point end, I was terrified... no damage you can't even tell. Good swor.
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Post by squalembrato on Jun 11, 2021 23:38:57 GMT
I have one of the troopers versions. The serial number indicates it was made in the early 1920's. I have done extensive backyard cutting with it. It is a very weak cutter, even after carefully sharpening it by hand using the sandpaper on a sanding block/ mouse pad method to paper cutting sharpness. It will easily cut waxed cardboard milk cartons, thin plastic water and soft drink bottles and basically any very thin and stiff plastic object. It does O.K. but not great on pool noodles but is very picky about proper edge alignment. It totally fails on any thick plastic bottle such as a detergent soap container. Forget even trying tatamis. I know these swords were supposedly used in at least one cavalry charge by the Spanish in the Riff War in the 1920s. I have difficulty envisioning it doing any damage at all in a cut to a Berber tribesman swathed in a burnoose with a turban or hood. I think it could thrust adequately but the blade is quite flexible and a Spanish dragoon might experience the same problem the Light Brigade had in the Crimea against the Russian greatcoats.
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