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Post by Eric W on Oct 27, 2017 8:44:50 GMT
Hi. Just joined and not full member yet, but wanted to post this and see if anyone has good idea on age, if it's a prop or genuine, country of origin, etc. No history from my dad who just wants to know more.
I searched tonight for anything similar, striking out on one person's recommendation that it was some fraternity type sword. All those I saw were way more ornate.
The tang is peened to the pommel.
Appears to be brass handle.
No markings anywhere but maybe on the handle side of the crossbar.
Torso armor and weapons on one side, with a bearded, robin hood type hat on the other side.
Large half-oval extensions from the shoulders with sun patterns where the ricasso would be(?).
Two sides coming from the very tip of the blade are wide, as in no edge until they angle down to the handle.
Blade is about 18" long to the crossguard, and pommel to crossguard is 5-6"
What could this sword's origins be? Guess pics need to wait until membership set.
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Post by demonskull on Oct 27, 2017 11:05:29 GMT
Hi and Welcome: As soon as you can please post some pictures. It's near impossible to determine what it is without them.
Again Welcome
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 27, 2017 13:02:43 GMT
Welcome Eric. A photo will be necessary. Once you become a member with a user's name you will be able to send photos.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 27, 2017 13:07:04 GMT
Eric m'dear, darlin, luv. Didya ever hear the stoorie aboot tha elephant and the seven blind men? Seeyen you dinna hav any fotos regardin wha tha fook yer blatherin aboot, allh jest poot a bahg on me ead en tell yer you've jes desscribbled a f****** tele antenna.
Your interest and enthusiasm is very much appreciated. Afraid you'll have to wait til you're vetted and can show folks what your attempting to describe with a picture or three. My crystal ball is in the shop. ( An 18in blade isn't very encouraging.)
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Post by ewmail15 on Oct 27, 2017 20:35:59 GMT
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 27, 2017 21:27:57 GMT
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Post by ewmail15 on Oct 27, 2017 22:51:59 GMT
Great info and links Uhlan. My magnifying glass is only 5x maybe. With a 40x coming soon, I might be able to see some underlying markings on the hilt and blade. Wonder why the impact marks on the pommel. The amount of rust damage, pock marks makes me think the degree of craftsmanship there vs the brass (right?) hilt was far less.
I've read/heard online that old old sword makers built in that play between the sword/tang and the hilt to prevent the blades from breaking as was the frequent cas with rigid designs.
What are those half-oval parts of the coverguard called? I find a sword, any sword maybe, with this design and maybe I'll be able to narrow it down a bit.
I will do another deep dive with your provided links tonight when on my laptop.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 27, 2017 23:22:57 GMT
It's a fraternal sword, Independent Order of Odd Fellows. It might have been blunted if it was put to use as a theatrical/costume sword or a children's toy. For examples, info, discussion, see: www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12922The prototype for these brass hilted swords with chunky block guards is the Ecole de Mars sword:  Brass hilted "gladius" swords were popular across much of Europe in the early 19th century, and in the USA, too. But the military one usually have a different style of guard  (i.e., not a giant rectangular block of brass). What are those half-oval parts of the coverguard called? Langets. Their usual function is to help hold the sword securely in the scabbard, a little like the Japanese habaki or Chinese tunkou (collars at the base of the blade), except on the outside of the scabbard, rather than the inside. Very common on Indian, Persian, western Asian swords, and the African kaskara, and also common on European/American swords. The ones on this sword might be purely ornamental. |
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 28, 2017 0:06:17 GMT
Any plate that goes below the cross-guard so as to envelop the scabbard and applys some locking pressure to keep the blade in its sheath is reffered to as a langet.
Most of the military short arms I have seen in this style are artillery enlisted. None have langets. This style of sword was also very common to 19th Century police, firemen, and other civil service agencies.
Future pics you might wish to become familiar with something like Imgur.com; a free, third party storage appliance you can transfer scale down photo into the forum. Your hi-density original photos are too big to enlarge with any clarity.
Another thing: your allusion to "knightly armor" is in fact, classical greco-roman body armor.
Happy hunting.
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Post by ewmail15 on Oct 28, 2017 3:34:13 GMT
I think I've identified the name of the Greco-Roman side profile on the shoulder, as Greek strategist Themistocles. First image that looked like a match had mention of Pio Clementino museum. Further image searches gave me the one below.  Un jardín en el Mediterráneo saved to Great navigators of history Themistocles (524 - 459 a. C) Athenian politician and general. One of the most important battles of the ancient world was that of Salamis (Medical War II, in 480 a. Of C) and resulted in the destruction by the Greeks of the huge fleet of the Persians. The latter, led by Xerxes, had launched a massive invasion of Greece, Asia Minor through making a huge army raced across the plains of Anatolia, Laodicea, Sardis and Pergamum, intending to cross the Dardanelles to reach the Greeks in the peninsula. I just flipped over to another page from Timo, www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12922, and look at what I see (posts #4, 7, 8). You nailed it Timo. Wonderful find for me. Sure wish the blade was in good shape and had the scabbard. Still, it might have some market to the right person. L'Ecole de Mars circa 1794, with only June to October of that year of the brotherhood's existence? Now, where to find someone who can appraise this very rare IOOF sword.  Attachments:
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 28, 2017 10:27:03 GMT
Not a fraternal organization. In the chaos of the revolution the Revolutionary Council wanted to create a new Military Academy "purified" of the of the Monarchy. France was already under attack by the other monarchs of Europe, so the scheme died before it started, as the state needed the support of the old regime Army to survive. The academy sword, of which 500 copies were to be produced, was said to have been designed by Jean-Jaques David the grand painter of the period.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 28, 2017 10:58:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2017 12:57:22 GMT
These fraternal glaives are not so uncommon and sold into the 20th century. One can pick up the Kaplan, Marino and Hamilton book which shows the vast scope of what was once hundreds of societies. The IOOF used a number of swords and early on for the US group, were buying the US m1832 artillery swords in some quantity. Etched to their order, those old examples can be truly valuable. After the civil war, Ames and other producers produced several Greco/Roman types for both the societies and theater.
As far as value for this example, it might reach $100 or so to the right person. They do turn up with some regularity on ebay. I have seen them sell, with the scabbard, at well less than $200. Ames was not the only producer of these and the pattern was still listed well into the 20th century. A retailer or producers mark may add some minimal extra value.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2017 13:09:09 GMT
A poke in the ribs for defaulting info to a wiki page instead of going to the source  www.ioof.org/ |
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Post by victoriansword on Oct 29, 2017 3:17:55 GMT
From an 1882 WKC catalog:  |
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Post by victoriansword on Oct 29, 2017 3:19:21 GMT
1882 Ames catalog:  |
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Post by ewmail15 on Oct 30, 2017 0:28:35 GMT
So it really does have no major value? Does that catalog indicate that in 1882 someone could have ordered the theatrical sword? I'm restoring an 1859 Sharps carbine damaged, scavenged shell. The exact type rifle, without forend, stock, etc. as a dug piece is listed on a collector's site for about $1,800.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 17:30:27 GMT
So it really does have no major value? Does that catalog indicate that in 1882 someone could have ordered the theatrical sword? I'm restoring an 1859 Sharps carbine damaged, scavenged shell. The exact type rifle, without forend, stock, etc. as a dug piece is listed on a collector's site for about $1,800. As indicated previously. These were sold for some decades for both fraternal and theatrical purposes. If it was a fraternal sword belonging to a specific figure in history, with good provenance, it would still be a very narrow slice of the interested market. Add the full regalia of medals and uniforms and one might see a significant profit (to the right buyer). What it most definitely is not, is an 1859 Sharps I have many old swords and few of them would bring any real profit as an investment. If you are wondering about value for insurance purposes, a couple of hundred would be about the maximum ballpark. I am currently working on conserving a piece that was one of a couple of thousand originally produced over the first couple of production years. I received it in a horrible state but once cleaned up, might surely fetch a handy profit on the market. Add a correct scabbard and it would double its as bought value. Another, with a cracked blade and suffering fire damage was headed for the trash. As mislisted on ebay, ignored and I picked it up for a relative song. Even untouched by me, it would be valuable, not unlike your Sharps. Unfortunately, not all antiques fetch (due to lack of demand) what one might have paid or realize any real value at all. I don't expect to sell this anytime soon but was purchased with cleaning up in mind. Some meathead had heavily gun blued it to cover superficial staining and slight pitting. Modeled after the French 1816, the US m1832 was produced for the military contracts from 1832-1862. This one the early subcontracted casting and dated to 1833. Ames went on to casting their own handles with an upgrade in interior design. The sword model remained in catalogs and sold by Ames the rest of the century.   The fire example, before and in progress. Brilliant fire gilt.   |
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Post by Jeremy A. on Jan 20, 2020 23:01:23 GMT
I have a cane sword I acquired need help to identify it can anyone be some help?
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 21, 2020 4:50:01 GMT
Usually you can get help here in the forum but we need pictures and to post pictures you must be a forum member afaik.
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