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Post by bfoo2 on Sept 20, 2017 5:52:00 GMT
Hello
I recently got an Italian 1873 Cavalry sword and I'm trying to figure out the maker. Only mark is a small stamp "B" inside circle at the base of the blade and I havn't the faintest clue what that is. OldSwords.com and google havn't been much help so just wondering there are any specific reference materials out there
Will try to get pics up sometime this week
Thanks!
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Uhlan
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Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 21, 2017 9:00:30 GMT
I am looking around. It seems like marks are sparse on other examples as well. I have found: GG on scabbard, LG on pommel. It used to be that Solingen made most of the Italian stuff, but blades should be marked as such. Found an interesting tidbid for the model from Jean Binck though: users.skynet.be/euro-swords/IT1873.htmHere is one marked F on pommel and blade. Probably Italian inspection stamps. And another one with strange marks: www.ebay.ca/itm/Italian-Italy-WWI-WW1-Cavalry-Sword-/162518269436?hash=item25d6d7fdfc:g:1RgAAOSwSzRZSskfMaybe by 1873 they had Italian production up and running? These things were used in WWI where Italy was allied. So Solingen import would not be allowed. Officially that is. Of course there are always ways to go around an embargo. Italy buying a bunch of unmarked Solingen made sabres via Luxembourg? Or the neutral Netherlands? The Swedes used this route too.
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Post by Afoo on Sept 22, 2017 3:52:46 GMT
It can't be a French pincoin can it? The B with a star on top pincoin is consistent with the time period (1880s-895 thanks to Uhlan's references), though I do not know of any references indicating that this was done.
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Post by bfoo2 on Sept 22, 2017 4:02:39 GMT
Yeah, markings for this particular model of sword are troublesome. The preceding model (M1860s) are often stamped with one of the many Solingen makers. However, proper markings on the 1873 pipebacks seem to be more rare, at least in my experience (and apparently in Ulahn's too). A few will have Alex Coppel or F. Horster but the vast majority do not have any meaningful makers' marks at all. I suspect like Ulahn that the Italians had some domestic production by this time. I guess the state arsenals didn't have makers' marks? I can only speculate that the Italian state arsenals were not very consistent. I have owned two M1873s- both unmarked and presumably of domestic production. The first one had an ill-defined, lumpen pipeback and was quite heavy. The second one is much crisper and pleasant in the hand, but is a touch too floppy (although most pipebacks are). Of course one would expect some degree of variation within the same pattern of sword- however the difference between these two was night and day. {We've owned matching pairs of antiques before (Brit 1885 from Mole and WKC, Argentine 1898 officer from Alex Coppel and unknown maker) but those tended to be quite similar} Interestingly, Italian post-WWI production (1888, 1927 and 1929 dress swords) tend to be more regularly stamped with the "Gnutti" maker's mark- which I understand was a state-arsenal. Not sure the reason for the change in practise. Attachments:
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Post by bfoo2 on Sept 22, 2017 4:05:24 GMT
While doing further research, I found that Gnutti made this interesting and rather ugly 1900/1909 prototype sword combining a pipeback blade and a contoured ergonomic grip. Looks like a rather ugly bastard-child from an Italian 1873 and a Spanish 1895...
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Post by bfoo2 on Sept 22, 2017 4:14:46 GMT
Afoo does this look French to you? So my logic is that there are two ways a French pincoin could end up on this. 1) the French captured an Italian blade and had it refurbished- not likely since the French and Italians never fought after this sword was introduced in 1873. 2) French-made for Italian under contract. Now the French did sell 1822LC blades all over. However I do not think they would take custom orders for non-French pattern blades. The French forges didn't sell themselves out like Solingen
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Post by victoriansword on Sept 22, 2017 16:32:02 GMT
Check out Cesare Calamandrei's "Storia dell'arma bianca Italiana".
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 22, 2017 20:34:32 GMT
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Post by Dave Kelly on Sept 22, 2017 22:02:23 GMT
Took me three years to find Calamendi's history of Italian military edged weapons. Anything before 1871 is further complicated by the seperate kingdoms and dependencies, some of which were controlled by the superpowers of Austria, France and Spain.
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