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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 8, 2017 12:01:38 GMT
Someone (me) once said: "Swords evolved until guns revolved", ... but is there still a further development?
First came one handed swords made of bronze and later steel together with a shield, later twohanders with plate armor, rapier, saber and smallsword, dress-sword...
I recently bought two swords which can be called military dress swords despite they are made of carbon steel and real weapons. I wondered if they could be called the current climax of the evolution of the sword. Or is there now or in the past another swordtype that deserves this notion?
I think about the latest cavalry sword-lances (1908).
I exclude pure tool-machetes often used in recent conflicts, but there might be a purposeful fighting machete type for special troops. Knives, even bigger ones, are excluded too, they are not swords.
(Edit: Sabers count as swords!)
With "climax" I don't mean "the best sword ever"! But what type is the most recent useful piece of steel that can be called a sword quite rightly?
What do you think?
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Post by leviathansteak on Sept 8, 2017 12:30:46 GMT
But it depends on what you want to use the sword for...
For unarmoured civilian use, id say the rapier.
For use in war or in armour, the longsword.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 8, 2017 12:59:37 GMT
But the rapier changed into the smallsword, which was really in use for duels. And 19th cent. cavalry used sabers, not longswords.
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Post by leviathansteak on Sept 8, 2017 14:20:16 GMT
Ah yes valid points
However i believe the smallsword was favoured over the rapier due to social constraints rather than martial effectiveness.
A sabre does make sense in 19th century cavalry context if your opponents arent wearing much armour.
Different contexts, whether martial or social do influence the design of the most appropriate weapon for that situation
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Sept 8, 2017 14:21:03 GMT
Most recent in Europe? I'd say the last actually for use intended military sabres from the late 19th or (very) perhaps beginning of the 20th century.
If you include Japanese Gunto, these are even more recent.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 14:42:19 GMT
There was a US helicopter pilot (Loach) during the Vietnam war that carried a sword with him and apparently for use. Somewhere I have photos of a Patton 1913 with a stenciled scabbard reading to an Airborne Lt. There are any number of online sources for the last use of a sword in a military sense and they continue today. A number of US military operatives/troopers carry short swords along the line of a gladius. Whaat was the question again? Lots of machetes still common war carry, so short swords possibly an answer for you. The climax of mental masturbation though perhaps more difficult to resolve. The smatchet and Fair Sword derivatives still sought out for modern warriors. You can get those in INFI I wouldn't be surprised to see or hear of Zombie Tools swords in the Mid East.
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 8, 2017 14:46:06 GMT
There's also parts of the world where "swords" were much more common more recently, like Southeast Asia etc. But do those meet the conditions for this thread? Bolo, kampilan, etc.
Otherwise, military sabers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries would be the only real option for a sword that works in a modern setting.
Edit: Come to think of it, some of the Miller Bros' stuff could apply readily.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Sept 8, 2017 15:28:38 GMT
Well, if you think about it the machete would be the pinnacle of sword evolution. All the others died out due to not being the optimal fit for their roles, but the machete still enjoys widespread use.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 8, 2017 15:54:12 GMT
Some SE Asian machetes can be considered as swords, especially if they are traditional weapons, and afaik they were in use in the 20th cent. or even now. But I'd exclude the $ 5 machete intented to be a tool, but of course a deadly weapon, like an axe, a crowbar, knives etc.
I remember at least here in Germany we have student fraternities which still fight duels for honor ("mensur"), not to the death and very ritualized, but you can get a cut in the face. They use a straight cutting saber with a bowl guard.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 16:24:12 GMT
The mensur swords have not evolved much for more than a century. If not, then electric fencing equipment probably count as the most current evolution aside from aforementioned short swords being carried in modern warfare.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 8, 2017 16:35:59 GMT
When the mensur sword didn't change much doesn't that mean it's the current climax of the evolution of swords, at least in its niche? The interesting point for me is, that the last cavalry sabers had straight blades and a bowl guard and the mensur sword too, but one is a thrusting lance and the other a cutting sword.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 8, 2017 17:03:01 GMT
In my country the machete is king as it is throughout the rest of Central America, at least the northern part of South America southern North America, and the islands in the Caribbean. The English speaking islands there refer to the machete as a cutlass. I did see in very recent years during a period of unrest in Egypt crowds with swords. I could not identify the types except I saw one katana.
Whether the evolution is still in progress I don’t know. I will say from my point of view the pinnacle of sword development at the moment is the SLO of blunt, stainless steel the militaries are using instead of the real McCoy.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Sept 8, 2017 17:07:58 GMT
When the mensur sword didn't change much doesn't that mean it's the current climax of the evolution of swords, at least in its niche? The interesting point for me is, that the last cavalry sabers had straight blades and a bowl guard and the mensur sword too, but one is a thrusting lance and the other a cutting sword. Well, the Mensur sabre is, by intentional design, a very poor cutting sword. And an even poorer thruster but that, too, is by design. If you want to go with very narrow blades, making it a thrusting lance is the only sensible thing.
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Post by Croccifixio on Sept 8, 2017 17:09:29 GMT
We still have swords in use here in the Philippines, if you count them as such. Probably the only pure sword left (aka, solely a weapon and not a tool) here are Moro Barongs and Kris that are used by terror groups in the South for hand to hand combat.
I would argue that the last useful sword types for combat are short swords in remote regions of southeast and central Asia and the hand-lances of Western Europe. I am not sure, however, if there are still recorded instances of sword use in Africa and Eastern Europe (there might).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 18:02:13 GMT
When the mensur sword didn't change much doesn't that mean it's the current climax of the evolution of swords, at least in its niche? The interesting point for me is, that the last cavalry sabers had straight blades and a bowl guard and the mensur sword too, but one is a thrusting lance and the other a cutting sword. Only the very tip of the mensur swords are sharp for the very purpose of slashing. Are you familiar with old rapier blades that had flat spatulate tips? At least in their niche simply opens up the discission well beyond any specific and renders to a what might be best, newest, most recognized, cut vs thrust, short vs long Pepsi or Coke. If that was your intent in your first post, well that's fine but what's the difference between this and a few threads every page with the same basic responses and "evolution"? Someone (me) once said: "Swords evolved until guns revolved", ... but is there still a further development?So, are you asking is there or was there. As far as the mensur, no there has not been any real evolution despite any niche. Since we are expected to follow some train of thought only you are conducting, maybe try a more definitive query as to what exactly the question is. I hate to answer a question with an answer but if your basic precept is going to change, that is the only real evolution I am seeing in your responses. But what type is the most recent useful piece of steel that can be called a sword quite rightly?Again, your mensur is anything but new.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 18:16:58 GMT
Now that's a knife?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 8, 2017 19:46:36 GMT
"is there" ?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 9, 2017 6:44:31 GMT
At least in Europe, America and West Asia the curved saber was the most common sword in use until guns made swords useless. I was thinking about the last change to straight cavalry swords in the beginning of the 20th century, which seems to be following the development of duel swords. But those hand lances weren't in use really and the mensur sword is a niche too small to consider.
I didn't know those military short swords but it makes sense to carry only a shorter sword with all the other stuff. At least there might be a similarity to the SE Asian machete swords.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 18:44:08 GMT
At least in Europe, America and West Asia the curved saber was the most common sword in use until guns made swords useless.False The cut vs thrust debate continues and was often parallel. Take a look at the Winged Hussars of Poland carrying three swords on their horses (long. longer and curved) or even as simple as looking at French tastes later on even as machine guns appear. Larger artillery battles much more devastating later on than either swords or small arms. So both rule mid 19th century and back to the 17th century (or so) You could go far say as to say curved swords were less common in the west until the advent of massed small arms firearms. We never got rid of the straight jobs.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 10, 2017 4:08:13 GMT
So in 19th century there were more troops equipped with pallash/backsword and straight sabers than with curved sabers?
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