|
Post by legacyofthesword on Sept 4, 2017 0:09:47 GMT
What the title says. Did they just beat the armor out and leave it? Or did they quench and temper it to make it harder and tougher? I mean, they knew how to heat treat weapons, right? Are there any historical sources that talk about heat treating armor?
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Sept 4, 2017 0:47:47 GMT
Initially it was just beat out and mostly likely hammer hardened. The Italians, about the turn of the 15th began heat treating and showed up as mercenaries for the French wearing this stuff at the Battle of Agincourt, but the Brits prevailed. I suppose like everything else armour could be purchased in different grades and the hammer hardened stuff could still be had for less money.
|
|
|
Post by legacyofthesword on Sept 4, 2017 4:02:46 GMT
Seems reasonable. Images like this make me think armor was rarely heat treated: I can't see a metal spike punching through hardened and tempered steel. Which is odd, because this is supposed to be the period when armor was being case hardened.
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,346
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 4, 2017 4:12:02 GMT
Most plate was made of mild steel and had a hardness of 20 - 30 HRC, but some breast plates were found with ca. 55 HRC, they must have been quenched.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Sept 4, 2017 19:48:08 GMT
I failed to find the video I was looking for but found this.
|
|
|
Post by legacyofthesword on Sept 6, 2017 0:14:22 GMT
Interesting. But the video states that the technique of heat treating armor was discovered in the 15th century. However, the knowledge to heat treat iron weapons had been around for about a thousand years by this point. Surely heat treating armor is no more difficult than heat treating a sword, right? I just don't understand why at least one smith wouldn't try doing to armor what was done to weapons. Why would it take them that long to figure it out? Or, if a few people did figure it out before the 15th century, why didn't it catch on?
|
|
|
Post by nddave on Sept 6, 2017 0:39:27 GMT
I think a lot of it had to do with expense. Swords were expensive enough, think how much a Mastercraft heat-treated suit of armor would be. This goes back to the accounts that the majority of those who wore plate were nobility or upper class with the money to afford it. Another thing to think about is most nobility stayed to the back of battles and if you're not seeing much combat you're not going to need the armor to be really hard.
Also when you're fitting armour you probably want it to be more malleable and be able to be fitted to various wearers. Heat treating armor would make it less malleable and near useless expect to the person it's fitted to. That way the armor could be shaped or fitted more easily to the next person wearing it.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 6, 2017 0:48:44 GMT
Surely heat treating armor is no more difficult than heat treating a sword, right? I just don't understand why at least one smith wouldn't try doing to armor what was done to weapons. Why would it take them that long to figure it out? There's much less benefit. Wrought iron makes for a lousy sword (compared to hardened steel), but wrought iron can make quite good armour. Sure, it might dent more easily than spring steel armour, but that denting and deforming of the iron protects you - better that the energy damages your armour than damages you. Heat treating armour can be more difficult than heat treating a blade. The piece of steel is bigger, and harder to quench uniformly, and harder to do things like auto-tempering and differential hardening by differential quenching or auto-tempering. Because the piece of steel is bigger, it's also harder to do things like flame tempering. One thing you don't want is brittle armour, so difficulty in tempering matters. Heat treatment of armour can be made much easier by laminated construction (steel-iron laminates). While there was a lot of hardening steel armour at end-of-Medieval times, wrought iron armour made a comeback as guns became more common, and armour got thicker for bullet resistance. A lot of that 5-6mm (or thicker) bullet-resistant armour was iron. (Some was iron-iron laminates, which might provide more opportunity to absorb energy from a bullet through separation of the layers.)
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Sept 6, 2017 2:16:32 GMT
I would venture to say the increased surface area compared to a sword which required uniform heating first and then there was the quenching which was no small task. Look at how long it took the smiths to learn to make the size of plates involved in plate armour compared to the smaller plates suitable for coat of plates or a brigandine. As one possible explanation.
|
|
|
Post by legacyofthesword on Sept 6, 2017 22:05:15 GMT
But hang on... If armor was harder to heat treat because it had a larger surface area than swords, axes, etc., than why was it that heat treated armor only came about when full plate was invented? In other words, when you had armor that had the most big, one-piece plates with large surface area? Compared to, say, the 1100s, when you basically had mail and helmets. And why didn't they heat treat helmets and such? Surely a helmet constructed out of mulitple pieces would be no harder to heat treat than a large axe-head, right? Also, if heat treating armor was only developed in the 15th century, than what took them so long? What technology or knowledge about heat treatment did they acquire at that point, that made them more advanced than armor-smiths of earlier time periods?
|
|
|
Post by Draven on Sept 6, 2017 22:49:46 GMT
But hang on... If armor was harder to heat treat because it had a larger surface area than swords, axes, etc., than why was it that heat treated armor only came about when full plate was invented? In other words, when you had armor that had the most big, one-piece plates with large surface area? Compared to, say, the 1100s, when you basically had mail and helmets. And why didn't they heat treat helmets and such? Surely a helmet constructed out of mulitple pieces would be no harder to heat treat than a large axe-head, right? Also, if heat treating armor was only developed in the 15th century, than what took them so long? What technology or knowledge about heat treatment did they acquire at that point, that made them more advanced than armor-smiths of earlier time periods? I'm no armor expert, but... Hardenable steel is more valuable and more difficult to produce 1000 years ago than 500 years ago. I mean, think about quantities required - 30lbs of hardenable steel for a relatively modest mail shirt vs 1.5lb for a sword. Add to that the difficulty of hardening 30lbs of steel wire rings (would it have to be done as a finished product?) without any of them getting hot enough to weld together. Lastly, with the forces we're talking about (a person thrusting or swinging a sword/axe/spear can exert quite a lot of force) I'm not confident that a hardened steel riveted ring would be substantially better than an unhardened steel riveted ring - riveted mild, unhardened steel seems quite effective on its own. In 1000-1100 type time frame in particular, weapons were generally quite a bit more geared towards killing unarmored opponents. For helmets, again, I think if you're talking about forces that are large enough to destroy your wrought iron helmet, you're probably pretty well screwed. In fact, I think you'd be pretty well screwed before your helmet got destroyed. I'm not saying that hardening armor is useless - it presumably is worthwhile or they wouldn't have ever done it. But I think that its advantage probably wasn't worth its challenges/expense until good steel became cheaper and specifically anti-armor weapons became more prevalent. Of course, anti-armor weapons don't become more prevalent until armor is sufficiently prevalent to justify them.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 6, 2017 23:26:32 GMT
Also, if heat treating armor was only developed in the 15th century, than what took them so long? What technology or knowledge about heat treatment did they acquire at that point, that made them more advanced than armor-smiths of earlier time periods? Already by the 14th century, one sees heat-treated steel armour. Helmets hardened by quenching, hardened plates in coats-of-plates. I haven't seen enough analysis of older stuff to know how far back one needs to go. Apart from the things already mentioned above: A key advance might have been better understanding of tempering. A lot of Medieval tempering was done through slack-quenching (i.e., auto-tempering). This is hard to control. Lamination/composite construction methods can make tempering much less important. Even if enough steel is available to make an all-steel sword, heat-treatment, especially tempering, can be difficult. With suitable lamination methods (e.g., sanmai, kobuse, welded-edge), you have a much larger margin for error than with a homogeneous steel blade. If it's a steel-iron composite, you can safely attempt auto-tempering via slack-quenching, and if you fail, you have a brittle edge but the iron body will stop cracks. I guess this is a large part of why we see laminated construction for swords in Europe into the 16th century, and even later in China and Japan, and into the 20th century in parts of Asia. Alas, it's hard to do large laminated iron-steel armour plate. So you can expect heat-treatment of large armour plates to lag behind that of laminated blades. I've seen very little metallurgical analysis of small armour plates (in brigandine and lamellar). Some Japanese lamellar used iron-steel laminated lamellae, but I don't know how often they were quenched. But small plates like this are the place to look for early heat treatment of armour. The dominance of mail for much of the early Medieval period in Europe means that this is harder to find. For multi-plate helmets, you might want to rivet everything together before you harden it. But these helmets might be things to look at for potential laminated construction. Full plate is sexy and high-tech, so that's where people have looked for high-tech stuff like heat treatment. Lack of known older heat-treated helmets etc. might be due to less attention and less analysis of pieces.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Sept 7, 2017 15:38:25 GMT
There is much more skill and technology that goes into armour then a weapon. With both the quality will vary according to price, the craftsman’s skill, and just how much one can pay. Below is a close up of a top of line harness for that period. This was made for a king so all stops were pulled. Look at the numerous parts and the fit.
An issue that has long confused me about plate, especially for a man’s joint such as elbow, is for the armour to articulate correctly one piece needs to slide under/over another piece and for maximum protection the tolerances are fairly tight. It would seem to me that a received blow from possibly a sword but certainly a weapon made to combat armour such as a mace, war hammer, etc. would bend the armour so it would no longer articulate leaving that area, such as bending the arm, useless. I have not heard of that happening but the thought confuses me. The demos that I’ve seen use flat/curved surfaces such as a breast plate or helmet that are not subject to the problem.
|
|
|
Post by nddave on Sept 7, 2017 16:29:20 GMT
There is much more skill and technology that goes into armour then a weapon. With both the quality will vary according to price, the craftsman’s skill, and just how much one can pay. Below is a close up of a top of line harness for that period. This was made for a king so all stops were pulled. Look at the numerous parts and the fit. An issue that has long confused me about plate, especially for a man’s joint such as elbow, is for the armour to articulate correctly one piece needs to slide under/over another piece and for maximum protection the tolerances are fairly tight. It would seem to me that a received blow from possibly a sword but certainly a weapon made to combat armour such as a mace, war hammer, etc. would bend the armour so it would no longer articulate leaving that area, such as bending the arm, useless. I have not heard of that happening but the thought confuses me. The demos that I’ve seen use flat/curved surfaces such as a breast plate or helmet that are not subject to the problem. Perhaps that's why by the 16th-17th century you see less plate on the arms and legs? Also if you look at most full plate it has an extra plate covering the joint area. Perhaps that was meant to cover the joint from damage just as much as protect the actual joint opening from piercing and thrusting weapons? Either way concussion attacks are going to hurt and taking a hit or shot on the elbow is going to be pretty excruciating and incapacitating. Having a shield or the main length of your arm open and free would seem to be more beneficial than having it armored. Legs make sense especially on horseback but arms just seem less beneficial to have fully armored outside a forearm length gauntlet or shoulder pauldrons. Speaking of later periods and firearms, seems to me that it would be quite awkward to use a musket or flintlock with a fully armored shoulder, elbow and even gauntlet. So perhaps that's also why such full suits were eradicated? I mean when it comes to firearms your main target is the chest so it would make sense 16th-17th century armorers focused on a hardened and durable cuirass and helmet over a full suit.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 7, 2017 23:17:15 GMT
An issue that has long confused me about plate, especially for a man’s joint such as elbow, is for the armour to articulate correctly one piece needs to slide under/over another piece and for maximum protection the tolerances are fairly tight. It would seem to me that a received blow from possibly a sword but certainly a weapon made to combat armour such as a mace, war hammer, etc. would bend the armour so it would no longer articulate leaving that area, such as bending the arm, useless. I have not heard of that happening but the thought confuses me. The demos that I’ve seen use flat/curved surfaces such as a breast plate or helmet that are not subject to the problem. The tolerances aren't that tight. At fully-flexed, the lames/cop fit each other closely, but they move apart as you straighten the arm. The pieces don't slide along each other; the outer piece catches the inner piece at the end of the range of motion to stop a gap from opening up. Fighting in armour, the only issue I had with articulated joints was having the fan on a knee cop bent in so it came inside the thigh piece. The actual cops/lames - no problem. They're dished, so are quite resistant to bending. OTOH, this was modern SCA armour, and much thicker than most Medieval armour (1.7mm vs 1.0-1.5mm which, IIRC, is usual for Medieval elbows). A warhammer spike to your elbow might cause some problems, but it would cause even more problems if you weren't wearing armour.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Sept 7, 2017 23:53:03 GMT
A warhammer spike to your elbow might cause some problems, but it would cause even more problems if you weren't wearing armour. I’ll buy that. Hehe. In my post I said elbow although I was thinking the bend in the arm. But that was only an example to be applied to any area where several plates slide over or under others. What plate I own is small and does not work that way such as my coat of plates, helmet, vambraces, and knee protectors so I examine and get first hand knowledge. Mail is another story. Speaking of mail, I’ve been reading Matt Eason’s recommended book “Swordsmen of the British Empire”. It’s most enlightening. I was surprised to hear mail being used by both the Indians and the Brits in the earlier part of the 19th century, other forms of armour was used as well. The Brits were hard pressed for protection from the tulwars and British swords were lacking mostly due to the poor cutting edges caused by the steel scabbards. Hence the thrust was advantageous although in debate. Or to put it another way, the English reluctance to adapt and change, maintaining the attitude if it was good enough for dad it’s good enough for me.
|
|
|
Post by legacyofthesword on Sept 8, 2017 16:09:50 GMT
Great stuff everyone. Draven, nddave, pgandy, Timo - you've all given me a lot to think about. This is why I love this forum.
|
|
Luka
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,848
|
Post by Luka on Sept 8, 2017 21:04:21 GMT
One of the oldest examples of hardened armour I know of is a Swiss coat of plates, mid 14th century. It has nice 40 Rockwells.
|
|