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Post by arfoo on Aug 19, 2017 5:31:45 GMT
military clothing and gear?
Like asides from arms and legs, peoples chests seem pretty damn protected.... or are they? (yes I know they have metal behind their vests), but i'm talking about like near the neck and shoulders
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harrybeck
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Post by harrybeck on Aug 19, 2017 5:42:01 GMT
Kevlar, spectra shield. Etc.. sometimes strike plates
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 19, 2017 6:26:58 GMT
Only guessing: Cut/thrust perhaps in gaps, blunt force from a bigger sword, poking with a smallsword?
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stormmaster
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Post by stormmaster on Aug 19, 2017 7:00:56 GMT
sounds more like a job for a war hammer or mace
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Post by MOK on Aug 19, 2017 7:06:05 GMT
Modern ballistic armor is not actually very cut resistant at all, that's a separate category of certification and requires different properties. It also has much bigger and much more easily exploited gaps than any kind of historical armor. It's simply not designed to protect you from melee weapons (because it so very rarely needs to).
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harrybeck
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Post by harrybeck on Aug 19, 2017 7:08:58 GMT
Mok is absolutely correct. If you want cut and thrust protection, look into correctional armor.
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Post by leviathansteak on Aug 19, 2017 7:12:05 GMT
My first choice would be a warhammer or poleaxe against armour.. second choice is a thrusting sword like a xva longsword..
Wif you really only want to cut for some reason, you'll not be able to cut through the plate in the vest so you'll have to target somewhere else. Considering the thick fabric, id go for a kriegsmesser or something similar.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 19, 2017 7:34:23 GMT
Is anti-riot squad armor anti ballistic? I think of cut resistent clothing with plastic plates.
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harrybeck
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Post by harrybeck on Aug 19, 2017 7:43:40 GMT
Some yes, some no. Cut ressistant gear is available
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Post by pellius on Aug 19, 2017 13:43:02 GMT
I've got a new-to-me type XIV arming sword - one of those KA ATrim swords. I'm more of a CMA guy, and have no HEMA training. That said, this thing seems to be a brutal beast of a cut and thrust weapon.
I kinda doubt it would cut or pierce modern ballistic armor. It would have very little trouble cutting thru heavy clothing, though, and would probably break limb bones pretty effectively, even if the cut failed. A clean thrust into a limb joint would have a good chance of separating the limb itself.
The sword is fast and maneuverable, though a little heavy for "fencing." It seems to work very well in trapping type techniques. I prefer a single edge weapon for close/inside fighting. That said, I imagine an arming sword in the hands of a competent practitioner would make short work of an opponent relying on modern ballistic armor. If you can, you know, get past the hail of gunfire.
Disclaimer - I absolutely condemn actual violence, especially against police. (Considering current events here in the US, a disclaimer sadly seems necessary)
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 19, 2017 14:50:17 GMT
There are so many different types of armour out there these days and it is best to get something that is certified for the purpose one desires. I remember GI flak jackets made with ceramic plates and others with steel. I seriously doubt there would be any cutting on those. I didn’t think of it at the time (I wasn’t into swords) but I suspect that a thrust from a sword and possibly a well pointed smaller blade would slide over the plates and then through the joints of the overlapping plates, especially in an upwards thrust. I’ve heard of guys wearing civilian bullet proof vests getting stabbed and cut, but have no firsthand knowledge of this happening. I know there are vests certified for firearm protection and at different levels of protection. There are vests certified against cuts, and another certification for prison guards giving ice pick and stab protection. There appears to be not much if any overlapping of these certifications.
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Post by MOK on Aug 19, 2017 16:15:41 GMT
Really, the type of sword is all but irrelevant, here.
As long as the blade is designed for cutting, to begin with, it will cut most fiber based armors not specifically designed for cut resistance almost as easily as if it was regular clothing.
Cut resistant textiles exist and can be extremely effective, but most have trouble stopping strong stabs and do basically nothing against blunt trauma - I have a pair of light industrial cut resistant gloves I sometimes use for working on sharp blades, and I could saw at them with a razor all day without leaving any kind of a mark (aside from ruining the razor's edge), but hitting my hand with a stick - or a sword! - would still break my fingers.
Most plate inserts, on the other hand, simply cannot be cut no matter how big and sharp the sword is - but then, trying to cut or stab through them in combat would be kinda stupid, anyway, when there are necessarily plenty of soft targets all around the plates...
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 19, 2017 17:29:33 GMT
I’d give point, select an accessible target, and rely on blunt trauma, not necessarily in that order. Or use another weapon. Remember a sword is not normally the primary weapon but admittedly fun to use. Personally, my main concern with my armour is blunt trauma followed closely by a piercing wound.
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Post by howler on Aug 19, 2017 19:51:21 GMT
I’d give point, select an accessible target, and rely on blunt trauma, not necessarily in that order. Or use another weapon. Remember a sword is not normally the primary weapon but admittedly fun to use. Personally, my main concern with my armour is blunt trauma followed closely by a piercing wound. Yes, blunt trauma and piercing point seem to be the two best offensive capabilities, where cutting is the first dimension you lose.
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Post by wazikan on Aug 26, 2017 16:44:14 GMT
You don't want to cut per say, but allow the blade to slip past a plate and sink in. Then you have a controlling lever that also rips up the inside when you maneuver them around
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 29, 2017 16:18:50 GMT
You won't do much blunt trauma with an XIV. I've been hit with the simulators many, many times and gotten some bruises but little else. A solid hit on a finger or small bone would potentially break it, but those kinds of hits are rare in sword and buckler fighting. Remember that in a fight you are very unlikely to have the opportunity to make big arcing hits to an unprotected target. Against a trained opponent the most you can usually hope for are compromised hits, and you simply won't have time to get some kind of baseball bat windup. To make them into impact weapons in a typical fight you have to use the pommel. The XIV is a cut and thrust blade, so you use the taper to aid in displacing any opposing blade and claiming control of the center, then you typically thrust, draw cut and/or make some rotational cut. Often to the head and face. They can penetrate most fabric armor on the thrust pretty easily, though I don't know how well different kinds of modern armor hold up to one. I have found that modern cut-resistant gloves are not sufficient. Riveted chain would certainly be enough to stop cuts and mild thrusts, though.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Sept 29, 2017 17:10:06 GMT
I think the classic targets on the body are still the best, and thrusting attacks are going to be the most effective at penetrating armour carriers, light ballistic armour, and nylon/plastic web gear. Joints still need to be mobile, and so does the neck (especially in front). The armpit and groin are also great targets due to the general lack of adequate protection (in favour of mobility), and both offer ready access to major blood vessels. Cutting weapons are both less likely to penetrate the multiple layers of differing materials on a modern soldier and are more likely to get hung up or tangled in the target's kit.
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Post by jammer on Sept 29, 2017 17:20:47 GMT
Half sword, or an assisted stab, in japanese is said something like soete tski.
Is for stabbing sword inside the gaps in armour.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Sept 29, 2017 17:28:47 GMT
I'll add that most people hugely underestimate the effect of any sort of clothing on cutting effectiveness. Wearing any sort of tough clothing will severely reduce the effectiveness of cuts, and while it won't stop a mechanically sound cut delivered by a sharp blade there is a good chance that it will defeat a poorly delivered cut, or an insufficiently sharpened blade.
So while it may be more of a challenge to have armor that can completely negate all sword cuts, just wearing heavier clothing provides quite a bit of protection. So while I wouldn't consider modern military equipment 'armor' against a sword, you would probably be significantly more protected than if you were wearing a t-shirt.
(Anyone curious about this should try cutting stuff wrapped in some old clothing, or even just throw an old shirt over a steak on the cutting board to get an idea)
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Sept 29, 2017 17:48:51 GMT
Also, it's worth noting that people are not mats on a cutting stand. You can perform the most mechanically perfect of cuts and have it foiled by the movements, body shape, and/or clothing disposition of a human target. At the end of the day there is only so much you can control for.
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