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Post by admin on Aug 1, 2017 6:21:50 GMT
What follows is a brief overview of the origins of the Empire spanning a period of approx 500 years prior to its foundation. To make it easy to follow, I have created a series of maps showing a snapshot of the territories and war flashpoints at a particular point in time. The starting point is the so called Archaic Age.  1500 years ago: The Empire is known simply as Aelutia and is warring against the Eastern Kingdom of Cagbicio, having allied with the Tuath De. Escia and Khartoum (Egypt inspired) are at war, and the Kingdom of Thane is awakening to the West. Aelutia and Tuath De defeat Cagbicio, the Centaurs join the army, and Cagbicio is absorbed into Aelutia. The Sakkala war against the Parthanians and contain the badlands. Silverleaf is founded with assistance from the Elves. The world is young.  1250 years ago: Escia and Pomedica expand their borders to the North, the Kingdom of Thane expands in all directions, absorbing the lands of the Qahoori nomads and all the way up to Silverleaf and wars against Khartoum and Escia. Hemmed in by Pomedica, a series of border skirmishes devolve into a full scale war and the Pomedicans are pushed back towards their capital and eventually capitulate, swearing allegiance to the Proto-Empire. The Northmen, not yet skilled navigators, push south against the Sakkala.  1080 years ago: The Paragon is born. The Kingdom of Thane is taken over by the Deathknight and invades Silverleaf, who peitition Aeultia for assistance. Unable to march the armies through the expanded lands of Escia and denied safe passage, Aeultia declares war to force a passage to the Kingdom of Thane and the first war between Escia, Pomedica and Aeulutia begins in earnest. In the North, the Northmen push harder against the Sakkala but to no avail.  1030 years ago: The Kingdom of Thane is destroyed by combined attacks from the Aelutians and the Silverleaf alliance and will not be resettled for another 1000 years.. Khartoum is resurrected by the Lich King and begins expanding Westwards - forming the territory that will later be known colloquially as the land of the dead.. Stormwater is founded. The war between the Empire and Escia continues - a war that will rage on and off for the next 1000 years. The Northmen continue to apply pressure to the Sakkala, who seem to be withdrawing from the world. Nokotorikon experiences disaster and is reclaimed by the Empire. The Paragon proclaims the founding of the Aelutian Empire and ascends to heaven as a demi-god age 50. TO BE CONTINUED...A few quick thoughts and questions that need answering. 1. What happened to the Brand of the Fallen (sword of the Deathknight, who ruled the Kingdom of Thane) and its good counterpart, the Flame of the Host? My thoughts are that the Holy Sword originally wielded by the Paragon is still in the Imperial Treasury and represents the Emperors authority and lineage (unbroken line, all Emperors have been the great grandchildren of the Paragon). But the Brand of the Fallen is missing.. Rumors suggest it was either hidden away by the Lich King (who is believed to still have it somewhere), swallowed by the Beast of the Inland Sea, stolen by Dark Elves under the Kingdom of Thane, or fell into the hands of the Sakkala, who store it secretly. 2. Silverleaf is explained here better, it was originally a city state with strong ties to the land of the elves - and expanded once the kingdom of Thane fell. Its Southernmost city, founded by the Kingdom of Thane, was absorbed and became the focal point for survivors of the war and refugees from the broken Kingdom of Thane. Here it also explains why relations are good between the Empire. 3. Nokotorikon has changed slightly from the original story - here it is a truly ancient place of high magic. Here disaster befalls it 1000 years in the past, and it is reclaimed by the Empire and salvaged. But what of the Deathless witch? How long has she been around - the story suggests it is very recent - may need to change the story slightly so that the Deathless witch is ancient and rises at the end of the period described here, perhaps responsible for the disaster at Noktorikon. Can change either history either way, nothing is 100% set in stone yet. 4. Ancient lost civilizations: The civilizations of the Sakkala, the Qahoori Nomads, Cagbicio and Parthania are all lost civilizations now. The Qahoori nomads were disrupted by the Thane invasion and later absorbed entirely by the Land of the Dead, but a few isolated tribes still persist to this day. Cagbicio was absorbed by the Empire and has lost all sense of having ever been independent. The hardy warriors of the Parthania were defeated when they pushed northwards against the Sakkala.. And the Sakkala, they still exist deep within the mountains of the Demons Teeth mountains. There was a sword entry idea for a race of lizard riders - the weapon stays the same, but the story is slightly different... The Sakkala were actually invented about 20 years ago for an AD&D campaign I ran and were designed around a Beastrider PC. While it is a little indulgent to bring them back into this world setting, I think they fit the archaic period well and can contribute to the story we are weaving.. Here is a pic of what the Sakkala and their unique mounts look like..
Like the Giant spiders themselves, the Sakkala are Neutral in alignment and Shamanic in nature. While primitive, they utilize the gossamer produced by the giant spiders to make snares, nets, clothes and even string their bows. Children are fearless of spiders generally and play with tarantula like yo yos.
While they once dominated the plains and mountains around the Demons Teeth Mountains, they were overwhelmed by the Northmen and pressure on their hunting grounds by the expanding Aelutian Empire (the spiders take a looong time to grow to their maximum size and also each spider is bonded with its rider, if either dies the other will often stop eating and die of grief) .
While not evil, the Sakkala have a fearsome reputation and continue to intermittently raid the Badlands for supplies. They are thought of as evil by all the major civilizations except the land of the dead, but basically just badly misunderstood. If our world is to have a central character, it could quite possibly come from the Sakkala. Perhaps an abandoned Northman child was raised by them. And perhaps it fell to this one to bring back an artifact that was stolen from them by a black clad knight who is taking it to the West..
Either way, they add color to the ancient history of these lands and can either be minor or major actors.
So there you have it, a rough sketch of the early history of the Empire. Comments, suggestions, edits, changes, subtractions and more are more than welcome..! |
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Ifrit
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Post by Ifrit on Aug 1, 2017 8:29:22 GMT
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Aug 2, 2017 10:53:58 GMT
My answer to Paul's #3 question regarding Notarikon, Temple Nimbus and the Deathless Witch. Incoming absolutely massive wall of text. Of course, only Paul needs to read the whole thing
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A new timeline of The Sorcerer City of Notarikon, Temple Nimbus and the Deathless Witch
1750 years ago: Outcast magic casters from the Elven Homelands travelled southeast and established a small community along the Great Western Road (then unnamed) between the border of Sakkala and Parthania. The community became known as Notarikon and quickly became a haven for magic casters to flock and practice their arts. Notarikon welcomed all races and all practitioners of magic, promoting equal opportunity for all.
1700 years ago: Notarikon is no longer a small community. It had become a city-state powerful enough to call itself a nation. The government is led by a council of 12 archmages representing each civilization.
1500 years ago: 250 years have passed. Notarikon became the greatest ancient city of the time. The city itself promotes the quest for knowledge and the practice of magic. Throughout history, Notarikon never chooses sides in warfare and simply chose to be apathetic towards conflict, though they could only do so because they possess a great army of casters further supplanted by the Notarikon Sentinels, automaton golems that can easily kill dozens of enemy soldiers and immune to slashing and impact weapons.
1050 years ago: Akira Kosakami, the woman who would later be known as the Deathless Witch, is born in the peninsula based on feudal japan, southeast of Lhasa (currently unnamed). Her incredible powers and status as a Deathless were present from birth and her family moved to Notarikon in order to find tutors to help her control her powers. Earlier that same year, the Sorcerer City ordered the construction of Temple Nimbus in order to spread the knowledge of magic across the globe once the war dies down, though the unofficial reason is for the city’s nobility to live in as a pleasure palace. However, Temple Nimbus is also built like a fortress, heavily armed and armored, in case it encounters a hostile civilization.
1030 years ago, 1 IA: Temple Nimbus’ construction is finished. A design plan was established in case Notarikon needed Temple Nimbus as a weapon of mass destruction. The plan is called Project Hawiyah and the goal was to create devices and weapons capable of emulating both defensive and offensive magic to be installed within the infrastructure of the flying city, essentially turning Temple Nimbus into a flying death fortress. The plan, however, was never carried out by the government, some claimed that Project Hawiyah was far too deadly and inhumane at the time. Still, the plans, blueprints, and designs were left in a stasis casket in Temple Nimbus in case it is needed.
1028 years ago, 2 IA: The Sorcerer City of Notarikon was destroyed when an over-tier magic ritual backfired and summoned an eldritch being of incomprehensible power into the material realm. For a very brief moment in time, the armies of the world united in order to defeat the eldritch abomination. After 2 months of warfare, the Golden Dragon Lord of Lhasa managed to banish the creature. However, some claim that a part of the creature still survives in the material realm to this day…..
1025 years ago, 5 IA: Temple Nimbus is almost completely deserted. Only Akira and 300 of the Temple Nimbus Sentinels remained. Having lost her family and with nowhere else to go she spent weeks tending to the Sentinels in order to spend the time. She would eventually find a stasis casket meant to preserve certain individuals and magical artefacts and entered stasis for nearly a millennia.
In the centuries since, Temple Nimbus faded into myth. Many storytellers spread tales of a dead city amongst the clouds, inhabited by specters that would slay anyone that dare tread its streets. Storytellers also spread tales of great treasures and magical artefacts hidden within the flying city. These stories caused many adventurers to try their luck and raid Temple Nimbus. Most lose their lives to the Sentinels, and the survivors only told nightmarish stories of demons who stalk them relentlessly through the dead city. Eventually, the adventurers stopped coming.
Amidst these endless centuries, the Sentinels developed their intelligence to the point where they became truly sentient. They remembered their creators, how their city was destroyed and that they left their creation behind in order to survive. They also remembered their only creator who had stayed; Akira. The Sentinels then prepared for her eventual awakening.
40 years ago, 990 IA: Akira awakens from stasis. She was greeted by one of the Sentinels, who had painted its armor black. The black-armored sentinel then explained the events that had happened when she was asleep; with nothing left to guard and no one left to serve, the sentinels eventually started preparing for their last creator’s awakening. It also explained that they only have Akira as their master. They now call themselves the Nimbus Knights and painted their armor black to mourn their lost home and their deceased creators.
She would later hear that Notarikon has been rebuilt under Imperial rule. Curious, she decided to infiltrate the city. Under Imperial rule, Notarikon’s memory has been tarnished. Instead of a place where all is welcome and opportunity is equal, the rebuilt Notarikon instead promotes human supremacy and imperial propaganda. Unwilling yet talented individuals are forcibly dragged from their homes by imperial soldiers across the country and gathered in Notarikon for the war effort. Instead of a place of knowledge, Notarikon had become a veiled concentration camp for magic casters. Her short visit to Notarikon became her inspiration to retake the city. (Requires suggestion).
In front of an assembly of nearly 1500 Nimbus Knights, five times the number of original sentinels that was present when Temple Nimbus was constructed, Akira was crowned Lady Regent of Notarikon, and its eventual queen should the city be retaken. The Nimbus Knights swore their loyalty to her, and would gladly grind themselves to dust at her command. The skies were her domain, magic and sorcery her undisputed power and the Nimbus Knights her tireless army. Her ultimate goal: retake the city of Notarikon. Her first order of business: Project Hawiyah.
Later that year, Akira allied herself with a disgraced, former General of the Aleutian Empire named Glaucus Vorn. The former general had defied an Imperial order to burn down an Escian village and kill the villagers and was a fugitive running away with his most loyal soldiers to the border of Escia when he was intercepted by a gigantic flying city that killed his pursuers. Glaucus Vorn vowed to serve Akira if she could save his family from the Empire and spare his soldiers. She did exactly just that, in addition to saving nearly every single family member of Vorn’s troops and then granting them a home in Temple Nimbus. The forty year old former general then became Akira’s teacher and mentor regarding affairs of the world that had changed when she had slept and of modern-day martial arts, respectively. The two then began to lay down the foundations of an organization dedicated to bringing down the empire: Trisagion. Glaucus’ loyal soldiers became its first members.
995 IA: Trisagion expands, becoming a secretive, international, criminal organization spanning and infiltrating every single civilization and government on the planet. Under Glaucus Vorn’s leadership, Trisagion’s first order of business was to supply the resources and skills for Project Hawiyah. Akira rewarded him by transforming him into a Deathless, just like her. Regaining his youth and stamina, Vorn swears to serve Akira with even more fervor.
1000-1004 IA: Project Hawiyah delivers results. Temple Nimbus is no longer a flying city. It is now a flying fortress capable of laying waste to the entire continent should the need arise. Project Hawiyah also resulted in Temple Nimbus becoming a superpower at least equal to the Empire and the Land of the Dead. More Nimbus Knights were also constructed. By the end of the fourth year, 5000 Nimbus Knights were under Akira’s command.
1005 IA, the Dead King versus the Deathless Witch: Conflict between Temple Nimbus and the Land of the Dead erupts. The conflict itself was caused by a rather impolite human ambassador of the Lich King, who had bluntly demanded Akira to surrender Temple Nimbus and its technology to the Lich King or his army will march down and destroy her beautiful city. The Lich King actually only ordered the Ambassador to investigate Temple Nimbus, and not to demand their surrender. However, said ambassador was too ambitious and decided that he’ll take matters into his own hands and deliver results to the Lich King, turning his relatively peaceful order into an ultimatum. This ambassador did not know who he was messing with.
Said hapless ambassador brought ruin and destruction upon the Land of the Dead.
At first, the Lich King’s undead forces were caught off guard by Nimbus Knight suddenly dropping out of the skies. The unconventional tactics used by the Nimbus Knights made a mockery of the Land of the Dead's defenses - They had never expected an enemy to be coming form the skies and then assaulting them from the ground. Anti-dragon tactics did not work against Temple Nimbus’ massive size and powerful armament.
The casualty rate in the early stages of the conflict were nearly 10:1. Zombies and common skeletons were no match for the Nimbus Knight's heavy armor, which was fullproof against slashing and impact weapons. The Knights Warscythes tore their way through the Lich Kings defenses all the way to Ankarath, the Capital.
The climax of the conflict was when Temple Nimbus besieged the capital city of Ankarath, having bypassed most of the Land of the Dead’s defenses. The Siege of Ankarath became the first battle in which the Nimbus Knights suffered heavy losses. By this time, the Lich King had created more powerful undead to defend his city. The siege lasted less than two weeks, with heavy casualties on both sides. On the final day of the siege, the Lich King and his 12 paladins took matters into their own hands. Determined to save his land and kingdom, the Lich King and his entourage teleported to Temple Nimbus, damaging a huge portion of the city in order to draw out Akira.
The two monarchs then engaged in a titanic spell battle that shook the heavens and the earth. Many Escians recorded the final battle from within their border, thanks to Ankarath’s proximity to Escia. As such, most of the rumor regarding the event spread from within Escia. The Escian claimed that the ground shook and magical explosions could be seen from across the border. Columns of bone and ice erupted from the ground. Pillars of light descended from the heavens, no doubt summoned by the dueling magic casters.
The conflict ended just as the duel ended. The Escians then witnessed Temple Nimbus withdrew quietly from the Land of the Dead, carrying its troops with it. No one knew exactly what had happened. Some believe that one of the duelists lost. Others believe that the duel had damaged Temple Nimbus so much that they needed to withdraw.
The truth is that the Lich King attempted to communicate with Akira mid-duel. He didn’t know why she had chosen to invade his homeland and massacre his people, his children. She answered with another question; why did the Lich King demand her to surrender in the first place and threatened to destroy her city? Hearing her response, he immediately knew the source of the problem and asked his opponent to listen to him. She listened, then the Lich King summoned his ambassador. Threatened by two magic casters whose power surpasses rational sense, the ambassador then expressed his flawed judgment and regret; he simply wanted rapid promotion to becoming the Lich King’s advisor or even his right hand, and thought by threatening Temple Nimbus and giving it to the Lich King as a gift would make that happen.
Said ambassador was forcibly turned into a mindless undead by the Lich King as punishment. After tensions died down, the Lich King proposed a non-aggression pact between Temple Nimbus and the Land of the Dead. Akira agrees, and once the terms were set and signed, simply withdrew her city and her forces outside the Lich King’s domain.
Unfortunately, this conflict placed both belligerent parties in a difficult position.
In the Lich King’s part:
1. His kingdom was severely weakened after the conflict. It will take years before the Land of the Dead could return to full strength.
2. He had confirmed that there are living beings that could threaten the existence of himself or his people. Akira is a living example.
3. The titanic duel between himself and Akira had not gone unnoticed. The other nations now actively search their population for anyone that could become as powerful as Akira, hoping to train them to become living superweapons just like her. Possibly using them against him.
4. He now receives frequent reports that the Empire, Northmen and Elven Kingdoms are planning to incite another conflict between the Lich King and Temple Nimbus, hopefully weakening both parties enough so they could be easily destroyed.
In Akira’s part:
1. Temple Nimbus was unsuited for protracted, attrition warfare. The Nimbus Knights, though individually powerful, could be defeated by sheer weight of numbers and an enemy’s ability to replace losses. The Empire’s tendency to fight this way was explicitly mentioned by Glaucus Vorn, her own mentor.
2. Akira and Temple Nimbus had become notorious. After the conflict, rumors somehow spread that a white-haired girl fought the Lich King in a magic duel, and won. She could do nothing to dispel these rumors as stories of the Deathless Witch spread across every bar, tavern, party and community in the continent. Her sudden notoriety had jeopardized her original plan. The first step of this plan was to quietly destabilize the Imperial government using her covert organization, Trisagion. The second step was to demonstrate the might of Temple Nimbus,in order to sway the Empire into acting in a certain manner. This comes from the second moral of the original story of the Sword of Damocles, where "The value of the sword is not that it falls, but rather, that it hangs." The third step was to demand the Empire to secede Notarikon to her, and should they refuse, eliminate important individuals in the government and replace them with members of Trisagion or weak-willed incompetents, then try again. Now this plan is impossible to pull off because of her notoriety and the fact that she had used Temple Nimbus' offensive abilities too early, perhaps reveal ing their capabilities. It is also unfortunate, because her original plan would have saved tens of thousands of lives….
3. The very same problem the Lich King is facing – that the other civilizations are planning to incite another conflict between them. Akira could not help but wonder if the non-aggression pact could become a formal alliance instead, yet she doesn’t know if the Lich King or his inner circle would ever look beyond their rather hostile first encounter.
1006-1010 IA: Temple Nimbus and Trisagion began fostering relationships between nations hostile to the Empire, starting with Escia as the first step in Akira’s new plan to weaken the Empire. The Escians warmly welcomed the Deathless Witch into their borders, some even looked up to her as a hero. She offers to aid them in forging magical weapons capable of matching the Empire’s standard issue magic gladius and to give them information regarding imperial tactics and strategies, via Glaucus Vorn.
In truth, she is planning to use Escia so that she could indirectly wage war against the Empire. This tactic calls for her passively assisting the Escian war effort whilst keeping her own Temple Nimbus derived forces from directly clashing with the Empire unless provoked. The ‘Proxy War’ strategy is in its first stages.
1010-1015 IA: Trisagion engages in a prolonged, covert operation to unite the Northmen Kingdoms into attacking the Empire. Their tendency for conflict and aggression made initial conversations difficult, yet Glaucus Vorn’s leadership and political abilities carried the day. The second stage of the ‘Proxy War’ tactic will force the Empire to stretch their forces into multiple theaters of war, with the secondary benefit of possibly collapsing the imperial economy and capturing huge quantities of magical, imperial gladius for coronatite supplies. Said supply doesn’t even need to go to Temple Nimbus, so long as they are not used by the Empire.
1020 IA, the Silent Alliance raid: Escia was suddenly attacked by a rampaging, one-eyed dragon. Desperate to get rid of the dragon, they chose to hire Akira to kill it. Her demand in return for her services is a very special weapon from the Imperial Treasury. The Escians deployed their own spies and saboteurs in an operation that took months to accomplish. By the time the weapon had been stolen, the One-eyed dragon had been slain by the Deathless Witch for quite some time.
In retaliation, the Empire called for the greatest heroes within its own realm and its Suzerain Kingdoms, forming the Silent Alliance. The Silent Alliance, so it was called, gathered each nation’s strongest heroes, warriors, and mages and gave them the very best of equipment in order to raid Temple Nimbus and kill the Deathless Witch. Of the 24 people sent, 18 died. 6 made it out alive but they're all badly injured. The leader of the imperial heroes is missing without a trace, presumed dead (this hero is currently unnamed, It’s up to Paul to name him. He’s still a revered figure in the present day, and his loss is still keenly felt by the Empire). Fortunately, the heroes managed to injure her left arm, scarring the Witch for life. Unfortunately, the heroes failed to reclaim the weapon she stole.
The Silent Alliance raid damaged the Empire and its Suzerain Kingdoms more than Temple Nimbus. The Empire lost a huge portion of its heroes and its greatest hero. Temple Nimbus sustained minor damage to its infrastructure and the Nimbus Knights suffered minimal losses. In Akira’s part, it took months before she could use her left arm again. The Silent Alliance raid caused her to hate the Empire even more, possibly causing her to use more aggressive tactics against the Empire. (The entire Silent Alliance raid event requires suggestions and input)
1030 IA, Present Day: Akira’s secondary plan, the Divide et Impera, begins to take shape. The first stage of said plan, the Proxy War, has been accomplished. The Empire is currently facing an eternal war on multiple fronts, stretching their economy and their military strength. The current situation makes it impossible for the Empire to take on Temple Nimbus, and Akira is actually looking for an excuse to make them declare war on her...
Escia gains the ability to produce magical weapons at least of equal quality to the Imperial Gladius, while the Nimbus Knights Akira had posted into their martial arts school trained soldiers by the thousands. Escia’s military capabilities have doubled in the last 20 years, while trade and commerce with Lhasa continues to flourish.
The Land of the Dead regains its full strength, and while nothing suggests that the Lich King will break the Non-Aggression Pact with Temple Nimbus, the possibility still exist.
Trisagion tightens its grip on the Imperial government, army and nobility. They flood the nobility with drugs and narcotics, posted ambitious incompetents and drug addicts into the army whilst leaking Imperial tactics and strategies to the enemies of the Empire and disrupted any and all government-related activities along with the occasional assassination or ‘suicide’ among other things. The Government is destabilized, and some rumors suggest that the Emperor’s own heir had begun to meddle with Trisagion in order to fulfill his own ambitions, unknowingly threatening the Empire’s very existence….
In the meantime, Temple Nimbus grows stronger with every passing month, and should the Deathless Witch remain unchallenged, the Empire may very well be counting its last few years…..
NOTES FROM THE AUTHOR:
1. After much consideration, the Deathless Witch now firmly steps into the role of primary antagonist for any and all Imperial characters. She would be the perfect antagonist in the first arc of the story, before the Death Knight makes his inevitable return. She will switch sides after the Death Knight returns, fighting alongside the armies of the world against a universal threat by temporarily putting aside their differences...or remain neutral.
2. The Deathless Witch isn’t actively antagonistic towards anyone who does not hail from the Empire, not even to those who hail from the suzerain kingdoms of Tuath De or Silverleaf. In fact, she is quite friendly and respectful to anyone who does not come from the Empire. Still, one is wise to not incur the wrath of the Deathless Witch.
3. All Deathless share the same trait of functional immortality. All deathless cannot die from old age. The Deathless are further categorized into two beings; naturally born and artificial. A naturally born Deathless is often called a God-kin or Demigod, and they are born with incredible powers and status as a Deathless. Examples of naturally born Deathless are the Deathless Witch, Akira Kosakami and the First Emperor, Paragon. An artificial Deathless is basically a normal human being who will not die of old age without special powers. An example is Glaucus Vorn, the Renegade General. All deathless can be killed, however, but far more difficult than any normal human being.
4. Temple Nimbus is portrayed as a powerful nation with little similarity to World War 2’s Germany; in that they are not very effective at attrition warfare and relies on Blitzkrieg/lightning war tactics to overwhelm their foes in direct conflict (Temple Nimbus does NOT commit genocide in any way. In fact, the only reason why Temple Nimbus hasn’t curb-stomped the Empire is because Akira is trying to save as many innocent civilians as she can). However, since Akira is infinitely more competent and open-minded than Germany’s leader in World War 2, she is currently supplanting Temple Nimbus’ inability to sustain protracted warfare by engaging in a proxy war against the Empire, destabilizing their government, and stretching their military and economic strength to the breaking point (AKA her Divide et Impera plan).
5. Akira ‘the Deathless Witch’ Kosakami is not portrayed as a stereotypical fantasy villain, in no small part due to her extreme competence as an antagonist. She is not after world domination or destroying the world. The only thing she’s after is to retake her city and rebuilt Notarikon’s legacy. In fact, if the Empire chooses to simply secede Notarikon, there will be no conflict nor bad blood between Temple Nimbus and the Empire and she would stop any and all plans to take down the Empire. She’s only openly hostile to the Empire after the Silent Alliance raid, where she was injured and scarred for life. She is also NOT responsible for the disaster that befell Notarikon. She’s very unlikely to ally herself with the Death Knight, as she is not 'evil' and does not want to rule the world or commit genocide.
6. I portrayed the Aleutian Empire as human supremacists in this timeline of events. Basically every Imperial Law is written for humans by humans and any other race living under imperial rule will have to follow the laws to the best of their abilities or be thrown into prison. Discrimination against non-humans are also common amongst Imperial citizens. Any suggestions regarding this view is welcome. However, I do not want to portray the Empire as a flawless beacon of civilization where everything is fair and good. I want to portray the bad side of the Empire. I need suggestions on this.
QUESTIONS THAT NEED TO BE ANSWERED (MOSTLY BY PAUL, HOPEFULLY AFTER READING THE WALL OF TEXT ABOVE):
1. Should the Deathless Witch know the First Emperor, Paragon? As in, should they have ever met and fought with or against each other sometime in the past? This could make the story interesting if any Imperial characters should meet with her and find out that she personally knew their God. Even more interesting if the Empire of today is nothing like the Empire of Paragon’s time, perhaps they’ve forgotten Paragon’s true teachings, while the Deathless Witch still remembers….
2. I’m still uncertain what sort of disaster might best fit Notarikon’s destruction into the story as a whole. Right now the disaster I wrote summoned an eldritch abomination that might be the progenitor of the Monster of the Inland Sea… but any suggestions are welcome as nothing is set in stone yet.
3. The conflict between the Lich King and Temple Nimbus needs a lot of suggestion, but I think I’ve portrayed the misunderstanding between the belligerent parties quite well. The Lich King is also portrayed simply as a king trying to defend his kingdom and not at all malevolent. However, the root of the conflict needs a little bit of work and your suggestions.
4. Who are the heroes who took part in the Silent Alliance raid? Who are the survivors? What did these survivors do after the raid? What exactly happened during the raid? Were there traitors to the Empire amongst the Raid Team? Personally I feel that these heroes should not be other people’s characters. However, the other forum member’s characters could be related to these heroes or inspired by them. Taking up their mantle and their fight against the Deathless Witch.
5. Should the weapon that Akira ordered the Escians to steal be the Flame of the Host? If not, what weapon did she demand? What are its special properties? (Looking back, it probably shouldn’t be the Flame of the Host but something of roughly equal importance).
6. What happened to Notarikon under Imperial Jurisdiction? Did the Empire preserve Notarikon’s old ideals or overwrote them under Imperial Law? How much did they preserve and how much did they change?
------- Thanks for reading, as always, suggestions are welcome. Sorry for the huge wall of text. EDIT: Removed the Laser and superweapons  I broke my own rules  EDIT 2: added epic battle
EDIT 3: after much discussion and reconsideration, most of this timeline has been retconned. I will not specify which parts are retconned but the timeline should not be used as a reference any longer in any way as of this edit.
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Post by onekelvin on Aug 2, 2017 15:04:36 GMT
I wrote a post, and then the computer goofed and deleted everything I wrote. This is going to be shorter that the last one. I like a lot of what you wrote. This is what I would change. 1. The name Akira. Magical super-person, governments looking for a new one, there are too many similarities to, well...  So, I'd go into google translate and come up with at least a different name for the witch. 2. The super lasers. A floating city-fortress is a super weapon, and the enchantments required to make a city of stone float in the sky forever are sufficiently advanced that I don't think the power of the ancients is diminished by removing the laser. Also the battles are less epic if the undead are just lasered away and don't fight the Sentinels at all. Also it removes a lot of motivation for the witch to actually like, interact with the world. She doesn't need to steal weapons if she has the laser. She doesn't have to make an army if she has the laser. If the only thing keeping her in check is her own sensibility then she is a god, not a witch. And her own sensibility that the laser is cruel doesn't really make any sense either. That laser kills people just as bad as mechanical hordes, it just means no wounded, and it just removes all actual sword-fighting from the plot. So. More this:  Less this:  3. I think the story makes the witch take center-stage a little bit too much. This is a world about swords. And sword fighting. And the power and magic imbued in swords. The witch is a part of legend, a myth that a peasant could conceivably disbelieve yes? If she is actively dominating global geopolitics with her flying laser station, she becomes less the legend, and more like Danarys Targarian with a Deathstar. I like her backstory, I like the destruction of the city by an eldritch summon, I like the sentinels, I like the floating fortress. I do not like the laser, I do not like the name, I do not like the blatant lack of swordfights. I think that toned down and put further in the past, the Temple could serve as a perfect setting for sword-wielding adventurers to arrive at searching for the accumulated artifacts and power of the legendary witch, fighting ancient robots and summons along the way.  I think that as it is now, it's kind of like adding another country to the map.  |
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Aug 2, 2017 15:46:52 GMT
I wrote a post, and then the computer goofed and deleted everything I wrote. This is going to be shorter that the last one. I like a lot of what you wrote. This is what I would change. 1. The name Akira. Magical super-person, governments looking for a new one, there are too many similarities to, well... So, I'd go into google translate and come up with at least a different name for the witch. 2. The super lasers. A floating city-fortress is a super weapon, and the enchantments required to make a city of stone float in the sky forever are sufficiently advanced that I don't think the power of the ancients is diminished by removing the laser. Also the battles are less epic if the undead are just lasered away and don't fight the Sentinels at all. Also it removes a lot of motivation for the witch to actually like, interact with the world. She doesn't need to steal weapons if she has the laser. She doesn't have to make an army if she has the laser. If the only thing keeping her in check is her own sensibility then she is a god, not a witch. And her own sensibility that the laser is cruel doesn't really make any sense either. That laser kills people just as bad as mechanical hordes, it just means no wounded, and it just removes all actual sword-fighting from the plot. So. More this: Less this: 3. I think the story makes the witch take center-stage a little bit too much. This is a world about swords. And sword fighting. And the power and magic imbued in swords. The witch is a part of legend, a myth that a peasant could conceivably disbelieve yes? If she is actively dominating global geopolitics with her flying laser station, she becomes less the legend, and more like Danarys Targarian with a Deathstar. I like her backstory, I like the destruction of the city by an eldritch summon, I like the sentinels, I like the floating fortress. I do not like the laser, I do not like the name, I do not like the blatant lack of swordfights. I think that toned down and put further in the past, the Temple could serve as a perfect setting for sword-wielding adventurers to arrive at searching for the accumulated artifacts and power of the legendary witch, fighting ancient robots and summons along the way. I think that as it is now, it's kind of like adding another country to the map. Hey, well done for noticing that I've named her after the 1980s anime AKIRA. It's a shout-out. Well, I'm currently tired anyway so I will eventually fix the whole doomsday weapon part of the city. Thankfully she's not a psychic, though. So I'm probably not gonna change her name I'll be sure to rewrite the story following your second and third point, just not today. I actually came up with the laser idea when I thought to myself; What would happen if a dragon decided to attack Temple Nimbus?? So I wrote down the super-laser as a deterrent against dragons at first, then thought to myself again; why not use it as against other kingdoms...? and so the superlaser idea was born..probably badly hehehe. Honestly, I thought it'll be pretty boring if Temple Nimbus doesn't have any special weapons other than the common automatic ballista or catapults. I know a flying fortress is already a WMD, but its still....boring, somehow. it needs something to make it more special. I'll remove the laser. Why the heck did I even think of that? I broke my own rules. Regarding the fact that the Witch takes center stage too much...well this particular timeline is written to explain more about her. She's the primary antagonist of the first arc of the story for any Imperial (read: main) characters, and this is basically her introduction into the world and why she's such a huge threat. So answering your #3 question..No, she's not a legend. She's a very real threat to the Empire and if she's left unchecked then the Empire will inevitably fall. Regarding the swordfights...well this is just a timeline of events that Paul asked me in his #3 question. I won't go into details regarding any sword-fights until the website is finished and we begin writing the story. Honestly I don't think the world is completely centered around swords..but more along the lines of balanced fantasy, like Warcraft where both magic and swordsmanship is frequently used and not like Lord of the Rings where magic is sidelined in favor of swords-and-sandals action. Again, I like your suggestions. Its such a shame I won't be able to rewrite the story anytime soon 'cause i'm gonna be busy in the next few days. I'll remove any mention of the laser, tho EDIT: I've removed the laser EDIT 2: added epic battle, removed the other superweapon |
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Post by onekelvin on Aug 2, 2017 16:43:12 GMT
Sounds good.  I hope I wasn't too curt. Re-writing that while post from scratch was a bit annoying and it may have came off that way in the text.  But yeah, I think if a dragon attacked the city there wouldn't be much damage done. Fire kills most creatures big or small, but it does little against stone, and the mass of the thing would mean that even if all the dragon did was claw away at it completely unopposed by the sentinel machines and death traps one finds standard in ancient temples it would likely break it's claws before it could get to the spells keeping it up. It's like asking what would a dragon do against a pyramid? or a mountain? Sit on it I'd guess. Perhaps make a nest in a section of it. If she's a current adversary and not just a legend, then I think her scale in the literature is good. I also think having the ultimate high ground and inter-continental lodging and transport for a legion of mechanical warriors is arsenal enough for setting the stage. =) She has a good defensive position, and a good army. I think what would keep her from wiping the Empire out right away is that is is bigger than her, and much more powerful all put together, but less mobile, and more spread out. If she has to bide her time and attack settlements one at a time lest risk her base be boarded by a legion through some machination then it gives her motivation to seek out weapons, artifacts, and an advantage over her foe. It also gives risk to the story, and risk makes conflict, and conflict drives plot. If the Empire can figure out a way to get an army or two into the city, then it could overwhelm her and take the temple. The problems are finding a way to transport an army into the sky, and predicting where the temple will be at a given time. I would guess a large griffon/eagle/dragon breeding program, or airships, but I'm not sure what magical creatures are at their disposal. The witch can destroy most smaller settlements, but is not omni-powerful. Perhaps there are wards that prevent the temple from getting too close to settlements or what not, but the sentinels can overwhelm most individual garrisons, and if the temple can be brought above its target then it's pretty much all over as robots and boulders rain from the sky. She will want to seek artifacts and weapons that let her bring her power to bear and give her an edge in battle, and yet will have to be careful lest she overreach and bite off more than she can chew. Also since her fortress is kept aloft by magic I think she may have a chronic fear of wizards, worrying that one might figure out the mechanics of its flight and undo them. Perhaps the Lich King got close? She may have been more confident in the past, fighting the undead with her machines and her high ground - hard fought battles, but nothing really could touch the temple. A few undead dragons? Some harpies? Skeet for sentinel archers and ballistae. And then the Lich King manages to get into the city, and now the conflict is much closer to her, the risk much greater; her whole world could literally drop from the sky. Maybe in the last conflict the Lich scratched the ward, or crystal, or macguffin that keeps the temple up. Not enough to end it, but enough that it broke the witch's confidence. Like a dictator with an attack helicopter that has a bad starter, she's worried that if she commits too hard or too fast one of her enemies will slip through and bring the whole thing crashing down? Add that to her fondness for civilians, and that could be why the conflict is drawn-out. The witch unwilling to attack in force, and the Empire unable to. |
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Post by admin on Aug 4, 2017 9:27:41 GMT
Great to see this story and history taking shape. The idea of the Deathless witch going into a kind of stasis and waking up recently is excellent. As such, she is both an ancient and current threat.
To answer the specific questions raised:
1. This is a good plot twist, perhaps the Paragon sought her out before he was the Paragon and she had some timely words of wisdom for him. This was latter re-written in the canon and edited out and now considered heretical.
Brief history of the Paragon: Born 1080 years ago, founded the Empire shortly before his death and ascension to demi-godhood at age 50. Came from an unremarkable background, rose to prominence in the Aeultian Army and found the Flame of the Host. Defeated many monsters, including the Death Knight. Was pure of heart and incorruptible.
2. For now, let us keep it unnamed. We can slot it into the story later once we have completed the tale of the Paragon, as he was around at this time and would definitely have been involved one way or another.
3. In all honesty, I think the Lich King would do everything in his power to avoid coming into conflict with her as he too despises the Empire. The only way it would happen would be if the Deathless Witch attacked the Land of the Dead for some reason. Such as trying to recover/get a powerful artifact (the Lich Kings treasure hoard contains MANY powerful artifacts, swords, weapons and much, much more. He is a consummate collector of all things and often comissions semi-secret expeditions to get certain items. So perhaps they had a conflict of interests over an item that the Deathless Witch needs for her plans.
4. Good question - I would assume the silent alliance would include some powerful wizards, Paladins and the like. The main hero should have survived but has been scarred and changed by the experience. Perhaps the love of his life accompanied the raid and she lost her life, and he is left doubting his faith and unable to use his Paladin powers until his faith is restored. Other people can chime in with some names, pics or bios of the heros - both lost and surviving. This tale should be expanded - so that the actual raid is described in some detail.
5. It probably SHOULD be the Flame of the Host. No other sword comes close to it except its polar opposite, the Brand of the Fallen, and the Brands location is unknown (though, as stated earlier, most believe that the Lich King has it hidden away somewhere). If it was taken from the Empire, the Emperor would lose significant prestige and even lose some of his authority and charisma (the sword bestows a Charisma of 20 on its bonded bearer). Actually getting a hold of it is pretty much impossible, but with magical assistance from the Deathless Witch, could have been plausible.
Another random thought - could it be that the Deathless Witch, in addition to her stated goal of restoring the Noktorikon, also seeks both the Flame of the Host and the Brand of the Fallen - and the worlds most talented sword maker - to forge them into a SINGLE ULTIMATE SWORD of unimaginable power?? It would make sense, as each sword is a polar opposite, that if they could somehow be fused into one thing the sword would be unlike anything else the world has or ever will see..
Would be interesting to see what form it would take too - would it be a hybrid of the two swords, or something entirely different?
6: The Empire would have seen Noktorikon in pragmatic terms. A lot of the knowlegde would have been lost, so the mages there would liase with the Elves and other magic users and would be conducing research to discover lost secrets, but within very strict contraints to avoid another disaster. As such, it would be a pale shadow of its former self..
NOTE ON RACISM IN THE EMPIRE: I don't agree with the concept of the Empire being human-centric. The Empire really should be quite pure - while there would be corruption and some sneaky Lawful Evil types in charge, they would have to bury their evil quite deeply as state works hand in hand with the Church of the Paragon, and the Clerics and Paladins of the Paragon use their divine powers to root out evildoers..
It is also bolstered by a series of laws and proclimations given by the Paragon, and even the Emperors power is limited by the rule of law and a council of advisors. The only real weaknesses of the Empire is inflexibility and over-zealousness. Essentially, unlike this cynical age, the average Imperial Citizen both loves and believes in the principles of the Empire, as they espouse justice for all and doing things for the benefit of the society as a whole. "Ask not what your Empire can do for you, but what you can do for your Empire" is probably something the Paragon once said..
Slight digression, but later we will expand upon some of the proverbs and wisdom of the Paragon. In short, the Empire should be pretty watertight - it kind of has to be to work in a world where some evil forces are an existentialist threat..
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Aug 4, 2017 10:58:34 GMT
Great to see this story and history taking shape. The idea of the Deathless witch going into a kind of stasis and waking up recently is excellent. As such, she is both an ancient and current threat. To answer the specific questions raised: 1. This is a good plot twist, perhaps the Paragon sought her out before he was the Paragon and she had some timely words of wisdom for him. This was latter re-written in the canon and edited out and now considered heretical. Brief history of the Paragon: Born 1080 years ago, founded the Empire shortly before his death and ascension to demi-godhood at age 50. Came from an unremarkable background, rose to prominence in the Aeultian Army and found the Flame of the Host. Defeated many monsters, including the Death Knight. Was pure of heart and incorruptible. 2. For now, let us keep it unnamed. We can slot it into the story later once we have completed the tale of the Paragon, as he was around at this time and would definitely have been involved one way or another. 3. In all honesty, I think the Lich King would do everything in his power to avoid coming into conflict with her as he too despises the Empire. The only way it would happen would be if the Deathless Witch attacked the Land of the Dead for some reason. Such as trying to recover/get a powerful artifact (the Lich Kings treasure hoard contains MANY powerful artifacts, swords, weapons and much, much more. He is a consummate collector of all things and often comissions semi-secret expeditions to get certain items. So perhaps they had a conflict of interests over an item that the Deathless Witch needs for her plans. 4. Good question - I would assume the silent alliance would include some powerful wizards, Paladins and the like. The main hero should have survived but has been scarred and changed by the experience. Perhaps the love of his life accompanied the raid and she lost her life, and he is left doubting his faith and unable to use his Paladin powers until his faith is restored. Other people can chime in with some names, pics or bios of the heros - both lost and surviving. This tale should be expanded - so that the actual raid is described in some detail. 5. It probably SHOULD be the Flame of the Host. No other sword comes close to it except its polar opposite, the Brand of the Fallen, and the Brands location is unknown (though, as stated earlier, most believe that the Lich King has it hidden away somewhere). If it was taken from the Empire, the Emperor would lose significant prestige and even lose some of his authority and charisma (the sword bestows a Charisma of 20 on its bonded bearer). Actually getting a hold of it is pretty much impossible, but with magical assistance from the Deathless Witch, could have been plausible. Another random thought - could it be that the Deathless Witch, in addition to her stated goal of restoring the Noktorikon, also seeks both the Flame of the Host and the Brand of the Fallen - and the worlds most talented sword maker - to forge them into a SINGLE ULTIMATE SWORD of unimaginable power?? It would make sense, as each sword is a polar opposite, that if they could somehow be fused into one thing the sword would be unlike anything else the world has or ever will see.. Would be interesting to see what form it would take too - would it be a hybrid of the two swords, or something entirely different? 6: The Empire would have seen Noktorikon in pragmatic terms. A lot of the knowlegde would have been lost, so the mages there would liase with the Elves and other magic users and would be conducing research to discover lost secrets, but within very strict contraints to avoid another disaster. As such, it would be a pale shadow of its former self.. NOTE ON RACISM IN THE EMPIRE: I don't agree with the concept of the Empire being human-centric. The Empire really should be quite pure - while there would be corruption and some sneaky Lawful Evil types in charge, they would have to bury their evil quite deeply as state works hand in hand with the Church of the Paragon, and the Clerics and Paladins of the Paragon use their divine powers to root out evildoers.. It is also bolstered by a series of laws and proclimations given by the Paragon, and even the Emperors power is limited by the rule of law and a council of advisors. The only real weaknesses of the Empire is inflexibility and over-zealousness. Essentially, unlike this cynical age, the average Imperial Citizen both loves and believes in the principles of the Empire, as they espouse justice for all and doing things for the benefit of the society as a whole. "Ask not what your Empire can do for you, but what you can do for your Empire" is probably something the Paragon once said.. Slight digression, but later we will expand upon some of the proverbs and wisdom of the Paragon. In short, the Empire should be pretty watertight - it kind of has to be to work in a world where some evil forces are an existentialist threat.. Hey, thanks for answering the questions. Now I'll respond to your statements (in no order): 1. in response to the conflict with the Lich King: It could be retconned or edited out, but the general gist of the conflict is that it was triggered by a misunderstanding (and an overly ambitious incompetent). At the time the conflict happened, the Deathless Witch had preferred to stay under the radar of the Empire and other kingdoms. She wanted to apply pressure silently before revealing the strength of Temple Nimbus and demand the Empire to surrender Notarikon to her. Plus the reason why the conflict was written is because it royally screws up her original plan to retake Notarikon and without risking thousands of lives. However, she could also be looking for artifacts and weapons at the time. One of said artifacts was buried deep in the Land of the Dead. She tasked some of her Sentinels to grab the thing stealthily but they got attacked by a random undead patrol, therefore igniting the conflict. Or both could happen. Her sentinels came under attack, the Lich finds out someone (Temple Nimbus) is bringing armed troops into his territory, accidentally sent an incompetent messenger to investigate and ask what is going on, said messenger threatens the Witch, and conflict is triggered. (I like this one) I also wrote the fact that both the Lich King and Akira knows that the other kingdoms are planning to incite conflict between them, setting up the possibility of an eventual alliance.... 2. regarding the relationship between Paragon and the Deathless Witch: I like the idea that she serves as his advisor or even his mentor for some time, just as Merlin was to King Arthur. Of course, I'll have to edit the timeline of events in order to accommodate this but it should be fine. Maybe they were on the same side for some time but then they had a disagreement after the Empire salvages Notarikon and part ways. A thousand years into the future, she begins to tear down his empire after it desecrated the memory of Notarikon. Absolutely great idea having the Empire consider any tomes regarding their relationship and from that moment in imperial history as heretical blasphemy. 3. Racism in the Empire: It doesn't have to be racism, but the Empire should not be a flawless, shining beacon of civilization where everything is fair and just and good. The Empire should have plenty of flaws, just as the Roman Empire did. Perhaps they practiced slavery, or forcibly subjugates anyone who does not submit to their rule. Perhaps they mandate heavy taxes or unreasonable laws to anyone who is not a pure citizen of the empire (not by blood, but because they live in the Suzerain States or other areas that chose to submit in order to preserve themselves). Or said taxes and laws are instead mandated to the governments of the suzerain states, pressuring them to collapse and letting the empire install local governments working under the central government's rule. Or the Empire may be a closet Theocracy, where both the Government and the Church holds equal power and sway over its people and as such, multiple laws are written based on religion. The Empire could trigger religious crusades and abolish any other religion that doesn't worship Paragon. This could cause all manners of conflict, especially since anyone from the Theocratic Empire thinks that what they're doing is morally sound (AKA according to their definition of what is 'good and just', but said definition isn't shared by everyone else). In any case, the Empire should not be a flawless nation of pure-good heroes and goody-two-shoes. 4. The Deathless Witch wanting both legendary swords: Well well, this is kind of interesting. I've noted down the fact that the Witch isn't a stereotypical antagonist of pure evil, so the probable reason for her wanting both swords is either to break them, therefore ending the perpetual cycle of good vs evil.... (best outcome of the story, IMO, plus it wraps up the conflict in a nontraditional way and proves that she's done more for the world than any 'hero' thus far). or As you said, she wants to forge them into a single sword of ultimate power, not to conquer the world or commit evil, but to send a rather cynical message. A weapon is a tool. A weapon does not choose*. A weapon does not differentiate between Good or Evil; it merely hurts. Said sword of ultimate power encompasses this philosophy; the ultimate form of grey morality and the real state of the human mind; both kindness and evil exist in some form within all of us, no one is pure good or pure evil. Said weapon contains power that far surpasses both its parent swords, and can be wielded by anyone. Not just people who are good or evil. Anyone. And it lets its wielder choose what they want to do with it. And then Akira simply throws the weapon or puts it in stone ala King Arthur's legend and dares people to wield it. This is a possible, nontraditional alternate ending for the story. (*note: I assume only evil people could wield the Brand while only good people could wield the Flame ala typical fantasy). 5. the Empire's view on Notarikon: Kinda like your idea that they're pragmatic and are attempting to find lost secrets and apply strict regulations regarding magic, perhaps banning Over-Tier spells entirely. I also like your idea of having the Empire round up all talented casters within their realm and drag them to the rebuilt Notarikon in one of your previous posts. As I've written in the timeline, Notarikon is no longer a city of equal opportunity and became a pseudo-concentration camp for talented casters. These casters are forcibly trained in order to bolster the Imperial War Machine, sometimes under harsh conditions. This is the reason why the Deathless Witch wants to retake Notarikon and restore it to its former glory. 6. the Silent Alliance raid: I like your idea of the Main Hero losing his loved one in the Raid and him falling into depression, losing his faith and becoming jaded and cynical, thinking that its hopeless to fight the Witch. Said loved one is now a prisoner of the Witch but everyone believes she's long dead. And it could be the Main Character's goal to tell the Paladin that she's OK. Probably by delivering a letter from her that she smuggled out of her cell. Oh by the way, the Witch succeeds in taking the Flame, which is why the Emperor sent the Silent Alliance raid. Not entirely sure whether or not the Raid Team succeeds in taking back the Flame, but a lot of the team members died. (I like the idea that they failed, which sets up another plot hook for the eventual protagonist). Most of the survivors should now occupy high standings in the Empire (and single digit numbers in Akira's people-to-kill list), with the exception of the Paladin, who's far too rattled to continue his job. Thanks for the reply, will be waiting for your next one. EDIT: I'd like to take part in writing Paragon's story. Preferably regarding anything the Witch does alongside him. |
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Post by onekelvin on Aug 4, 2017 13:10:28 GMT
Seems interesting, I would be careful about the moral relativism though.
Some cultures simply are more ethical than others. If the Empire thrives under a Lawful-Good god named Paragon, it is likely he will not favor those who act against his whim. There is always corruption and mistakes are made yes, but the Empire is not cannot be evil. It must be mostly good or it is not the Empire.
I don't think crusades and concentration camps would be doled out willy-nilly based on what I've read of them, even if every citizen were rotten to the core, their god would not put up with it. Such problems in an ethical society would have to be approached from that viewpoint.
A work-camp for talented wizards in Noktorikon for example, would have to be an organized thing, and likely populated with renegades and criminals of the magical persuasion. One may sympathize with the rogues, but I would not expect a lot of wrongful imprisonment. You don't go to Alcatraz for selling girl scout cookies.
Also a crusade/jihad might be impractical as they are in communication with their god on a frequent basis and are unlikely to misinterpret his will. If all of your magic swords that your legions use stop working when you kill civilians... you can't argue that Paragon likes killing civilians.
Remember what a man once said: "God was a dream of good government." Well, in fantasy worlds gods are less quiet than in the real one, and a theocracy is probably going to be a much more ethical style of government. If they started using their power selfishly, they would lose it very quickly.
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Aug 4, 2017 13:37:19 GMT
Seems interesting, I would be careful about the moral relativism though. Some cultures simply are more ethical than others. If the Empire thrives under a Lawful-Good god named Paragon, it is likely he will not favor those who act against his whim. There is always corruption and mistakes are made yes, but the Empire is not cannot be evil. It must be mostly good or it is not the Empire. I don't think crusades and concentration camps would be doled out willy-nilly based on what I've read of them, even if every citizen were rotten to the core, their god would not put up with it. Such problems in an ethical society would have to be approached from that viewpoint. A work-camp for talented wizards in Noktorikon for example, would have to be an organized thing, and likely populated with renegades and criminals of the magical persuasion. One may sympathize with the rogues, but I would not expect a lot of wrongful imprisonment. You don't go to Alcatraz for selling girl scout cookies. Also a crusade/jihad might be impractical as they are in communication with their god on a frequent basis and are unlikely to misinterpret his will. If all of your magic swords that your legions use stop working when you kill civilians... you can't argue that Paragon likes killing civilians. Remember what a man once said: "God was a dream of good government." Well, in fantasy worlds gods are less quiet than in the real one, and a theocracy is probably going to be a much more ethical style of government. If they started using their power selfishly, they would lose it very quickly. Ah, right... forgot about the constant communication with their god aspect... Maybe any negative aspect of the empire should not have anything to do with religion. Hmm, Paragon's constant vigilance is making it difficult to paint the Empire in a slightly more negative light, which I think makes for a better story. I'm also starting to think that Paragon has enough powers to affect real-world authors. I dunno about you, but the more I read about the Empire, the more I feel that its slowly becoming a nation-sue (a term I made up, encompassing an ideal nation where absolutely nothing goes wrong and everybody is happy). No offense to anyone though, just a personal opinion. Still, there has to be some negative aspect of the Empire. Something that can be considered taboo or unacceptable to someone else, perhaps their foes. If the Empire is better than everyone else then why is everyone not letting down their arms and join the Empire..? In other words, the story will be more boring because everybody knows the good guys will win, hence the Empire will win. The ending is pretty much written before the story ever was. This is also a problem in stories that feature Pure Good vs Pure Evil and where the stakes are the world or its population. You immediately know the heroes will win. There's no tension. How would you, or Paul, portray the Empire in a slightly more negative light, having read both Paul and your own comment? There has to be a conflict inside or outside the Empire that is caused by their flaws. A flawless Empire isn't fun to write about. It can be of good-alignment, but not flawless. |
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Post by onekelvin on Aug 4, 2017 16:39:22 GMT
It happened again. I have an old gamer mouse. One of the side buttons near my thumbs is permanently set to Page Back. Another whole page down the drain.  So, basically Good Is Not Nice. Or tolerant of evil in its smallest forms. Not killing civilians does not equate to openly accepting other cultures. Race is not culture. An empire elf will believe just as hard in the duty, and order of the empire lifestyle. The empire culture keeps the neighbors nice, and the children at their studies, and the roads clean and the aqueducts clean, and the elderly respected, and if you don't believe in what keeps it all going then the empire citizens will probably not like you. At all. Also not all cultures are equal, good cultures can still hate each other, and the empire will make mistakes that others will not forgive, good or not. The barbarians sacked Rome; why? Because they wanted to learn from the culture? No, they did it for loot and the thrill of battle. The Mongols made mountains of men, woman, and children's skulls. Why would they do that? For glory. The Romans burned the Library of Alexandra by accident when setting fire to the fleet in the port. Archimedes died when a legionnaire didn't recognize him during the siege and the philosopher was rude to him. The commander told them to take him alive, but it didn't happen. Because of a mistake. France and England fought each other for a hundred years. Which one of them was morally superior? The Orks don't care about and marble statues. The undead don't want farmland or running water. And the Witch is not waging a war against an entire nation just to replace the town guard with robots and institute free elections. There are deep-seated, emotional, personal motivations in play here. You don't need to make the empire corrupt and evil, good people will hate it too. Because it's the empire, and it's not their guys, and it's not their culture, and it's not their god. Cause' the Orks, the Undead, the Witch. they have their gods too; speaking with them, blessing them, directing them. Gods of order. Gods of chaos. Gods of evil too. Everyone is dreaming of good government, but when the world wakes up only one dream can come true. Just assume that everyone, even the bad guys believe that they are in the right for a good and logical reason. Tell me why Genghis Khan wasn't satisfied ruling all of Mongolia, and wanted to rule the world as well, and I'll tell you what drives the Lich King. And so on and so forth. Sorry, I'm a little deflated after losing that page. |
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Post by onekelvin on Aug 4, 2017 16:46:04 GMT
Also, who is Paragon really? That will determine the flavor of the Empire to a huge degree.
Is he kind? Is he tough? What does he expect of his devotees?
Is he a Crystal Dragon Jesus? Or is he harsher, more specific, less forgiving? He's a god of law, so what are the punishments? Where does freedom end and law begin?
Also I forgot: Citizenship in Rome wasn't something you were born with. If you wanted to vote, you had to own land, or serve in the military; and you were expected to participate in politics if you had earned the right. No complaining in the empire.
And I mentioned Demacia from LoL.
"Life in Demacia is not one of placid utopian dreams. Since the Demacian people pride themselves as the moral vanguards of Valoran, they adopt seemingly draconian measures to ensure that their moral code remains the only code by which one may live within the country. Crime in any form is harshly punished: there are no misdemeanors within Demacia. Some detractors of Demacia (who criticize far from the reaches of the nation) claim this as proof of its inherent hypocrisy. Demacians counter this argument by pointing out that their justice system incorporates benevolence and mitigation into its verdicts. No one is punished without fair and just consideration of the circumstances involved. While others may continue to criticize the harshness of Demacian law, the Demacians stand by their convictions."
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Aug 4, 2017 17:16:48 GMT
It happened again. I have an old gamer mouse. One of the side buttons near my thumbs is permanently set to Page Back. Another whole page down the drain. The Orks don't care about and marble statues. The undead don't want farmland or running water. And the Witch is not waging a war against an entire nation just to replace the town guard with robots and institute free elections. There are deep-seated, emotional, personal motivations in play here. You don't need to make the empire corrupt and evil, good people will hate it too. Because it's the empire, and it's not their guys, and it's not their culture, and it's not their god. Cause' the Orks, the Undead, the Witch. they have their gods too; speaking with them, blessing them, directing them. Gods of order. Gods of chaos. Gods of evil too. Everyone is dreaming of good government, but when the world wakes up only one dream can come true.--- "Life in Demacia is not one of placid utopian dreams. Since the Demacian people pride themselves as the moral vanguards of Valoran, they adopt seemingly draconian measures to ensure that their moral code remains the only code by which one may live within the country. Crime in any form is harshly punished: there are no misdemeanors within Demacia. Some detractors of Demacia (who criticize far from the reaches of the nation) claim this as proof of its inherent hypocrisy. Demacians counter this argument by pointing out that their justice system incorporates benevolence and mitigation into its verdicts. No one is punished without fair and just consideration of the circumstances involved. While others may continue to criticize the harshness of Demacian law, the Demacians stand by their convictions." Maybe change your mouse? There's quite a few Logitech mice for under $50. or try writing down what you need to write in Word, then only replying once you're ready. This is what I do for longer posts. ---------- Whose dream will that be? That is the question that drives the story. Made infinitely more interesting if everyone, not just the Empire, has their flaws. Flaws that cause problems, not mentioned once and blatantly brushed off for the rest of the tale. It doesn't have to be a corrupt government. It doesn't have to be evil in any way, but it has to be a flaw that causes problems.
Why? To make the story interesting and captivating. Your statements above are sound and solid, but if people wage war against the empire simply 'because they're not us' then who has the moral high ground and the reader's support? The Empire, obviously, since they're the victims. But what if no-one's the victim? Everyone stabs and attack each other thanks to the flaws that cause problems. Everyone has valid, acceptable and sound reasons to do what they do, instead of just 'we'll attack them because they're not us' or 'fur the Evulz' or 'my god is better than your god' or even 'because its my definition of glory'. What if the antagonist. has just as much reasons to do what they do as the heroes have to stop them? Why not try making each side of the conflict morally equal?Your note on Demacia from LoL is interesting. Why? because the Demacians' draconian view of 'justice' and their definition of 'good' causes problems for them and criticism flies at them. What makes it more interesting is the fact that the quote does not specify what is 'benevolence and mitigation' according to Demacian Law and how they apply 'fair and just consideration of the circumstances involved' in cases that involve people from outside Demacia (which may not be aware of the intricacies of Demacian Law). This has a huge potential to cause international problems in and of itself (potential plot hook if anyone wants to write a story). The Aleutian Empire, right now, does not have this problem. They're painted with golden pigments as Lawful Good heroes and everything they do is justified by their god, who constantly communicates with them. This makes anyone that opposes them as automatically 'the bad guy' and thus morally inferior. This is my problem with the Empire. It's slowly becoming nation of Moral-Purity-Sues. Which makes it difficult to fulfill your statement (slightly edited): Just assume that everyone, even the bad guys antagonists believe that they are in the right for a good and logical reason
Your comments on the Barbarians, Mongols, and Romans kind of specifies my beef with the Empire; The reason why conflict happens (and its outcome) make the reader sympathize with the victims, thus making them morally superior. However, your statements on Archimedes and the Hundred Year War is exactly what I want with the story; making people discuss and argue which side is morally correct according to their definition of morality. Note: I actually want the story to be more morally grey, instead of Pure Good (white) vs Pure Evil (black). For the reasons I mentioned in the previous post. Pure Good vs Pure Evil is boring, IMHO. ----------- Thanks for your $0.02, I hope nothing in my reply comes off as offensive to anyone. |
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Post by thesylvansmith on Aug 4, 2017 18:58:33 GMT
Hi Paul! Sorry for my extended time away! How can I help expand on Silverleaf? Should I write up a brief history on it and its dealings with the wider world? Getting specifically to the character(s) at some point?
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Post by onekelvin on Aug 4, 2017 20:59:45 GMT
This is precisely my issue with DnD morality.  Also I'm taking your advice here, and doing this in Word. Thanks! You're right in many regards and I do know that about interest, in fact I believe I've said before "Conflict drives stories." I prefer not to label cultures in terms of lawful good and chaotic evil and neutral and whatnot because almost everyone will pick lawful or neutral good including people that are by modern Western Culture standards very evil. I don't know what objective "Good" in DnD terms is. Is it about intent? Even ISIS psychos think that they are doing the Good of Allah, and many cruel and dark cultures throughout history have been doing someone's good at the expense of someone else's. The Mongols thought destroying a city down to the dogs was just if the fear it caused prevented further warfare; and in Mongol legal terms it was lawful as well! So yeah. Lawful... Good... I think what Paul wants for the Empire is for it to be mostly good; kind of the blue kingdom on the map. I'm all for giveing it flaws, and many of those flaws can be internal I think as well as overall. America for example is a "lawful good" country, but it has crime, and poverty, and EPIC political disagreements within it, and those things are taken all the more seriously because of most American's allignment. So each point one-by-one. 1. "That is the question that drives the story. Made infinitely more interesting if everyone, not just the Empire, has their flaws. Flaws that cause problems, not mentioned once and blatantly brushed off for the rest of the tale. It doesn't have to be a corrupt government. It doesn't have to be evil in any way, but it has to be a flaw that causes problems.
Why? To make the story interesting and captivating. Your statements above are sound and solid, but if people wage war against the empire simply 'because they're not us' then who has the moral high ground and the reader's support? The Empire, obviously, since they're the victims.
But what if no-one's the victim? Everyone stabs and attack each other thanks to the flaws that cause problems. Everyone has valid, acceptable and sound reasons to do what they do, instead of just 'we'll attack them because they're not us' or 'fur the Evulz' or 'my god is better than your god' or even 'because its my definition of glory'."
Yes again I know this about stories. There needs to be conflict for the plot to go, and it is sometimes good to have morally ambiguous conflict because it makes things less clear-cut. Keep in mind, just because one side is the victims, doesn't mean they didn't have it coming. Now I think this has limits, and indeed I don't think the Lich King is going to care much about the moral high ground, but I do think that there is room for ambiguity amidst many of the cultures. Perhaps the Empire invaded them? Example: the Conquest of Mexico. There is a generally-held belif that (I do not share) that the Aztecs were morally superior because they were on the reciving end of an invasion, and they were technilogically inferior. And yet a bunch of adventurers slaughtering reletivly-poorly-equipped savages for gold and glory is what many players are in RPGs, and this is exactly what the Conquistadores thought of themselvs as: adventurers. And aside from being the "victims" the Aztecs don't really have the high ground morally; they sacrificed thousands of their negbors to thirsty blood gods, so many in fact that the final linup for the Fall of Tenocticlan is: 300,000 Aztec Warriors vs. 100 Spanish Cavalry, 50 Spanish Crossbowmen and Arqubusiers, 1000 Tercio and Roderelo Sword-and-Buckler men..... and 250,000 Angry-Pissed-Off natives who joined the Spanish because the Aztecs were massive douchenozzles. The Aztecs lost because they were jerks, victims or not. And which is more moral? Personal greed and desire to further one's station, or, fanatical devotion to a blood-thirsty-god? Both say themselves: The Conquistadors were mostly poor, using borrowed swords and old guns, they banded together to seek riches and fame they could not attain at home in Spain. They achived this by killing natives they considered to be Orks for their gold, and pitting the tribes against eachother when the Orks killed off most of them in the early part of the campaign. The Aztecs had a thriving civilization with agriculture, roads, mathematics and philosphy. A civilization complete with freindly old women, laughing children, and hard-working citizens. A civilization built on slave labor, and on the ceaslessly flowing blood of willing and unwilling human sacrifes they belived with conviction were nessisary to keep the rain falling and the world from ending. Sacrifices and slaves they obtained in "Flower Wars" with their neigbors, kidnapping on a massive scale, utterly dominating the other tribes to a point where they were hated so much that their neigbors would side with the pallid, alien forigners just to destroy them once and for all. 2. "What if the antagonist. has just as much reasons to do what they do as the heroes have to stop them? Why not try making each side of the conflict morally equal?"
Morally equal is boring, but morally justified is perfect in my opinion. 3. "Your note on Demacia from LoL is interesting. Why? because the Demacians' draconian view of 'justice' and their definition of 'good' causes problems for them and criticism flies at them. What makes it more interesting is the fact that the quote does not specify what is 'benevolence and mitigation' according to Demacian Law and how they apply 'fair and just consideration of the circumstances involved' in cases that involve people from outside Demacia (which may not be aware of the intricacies of Demacian Law). This has a huge potential to cause international problems in and of itself (potential plot hook if anyone wants to write a story)."
I like this, I dunno if it'll work for the Empire, you'll have to ask Paul what his vision for them is. 4. "The Aleutian Empire, right now, does not have this problem. They're painted with golden pigments as Lawful Good heroes and everything they do is justified by their god, who constantly communicates with them. This makes anyone that opposes them as automatically 'the bad guy' and thus morally inferior. This is my problem with the Empire. It's slowly becoming nation of Moral-Purity-Sues. Which makes it difficult to fulfill your statement (slightly edited): Just assume that everyone, even the bad guys antagonists believe that they are in the right for a good and logical reason."
I think this is exactly what the Empire thinks of itself, yes. And since the other gods communicate as well I suspect this is a common self-sentiment in many countries. 4. "Your comments on the Barbarians, Mongols, and Romans kind of specifies my beef with the Empire; The reason why conflict happens (and its outcome)is to make the reader sympathize with the victims, thus making them morally superior."
I disagree. I think conflict happens because peace is boring and mudane. And conflict isn't only conflict between people. You could have a story with a single character on an island and still have conflit enough for a plot. Conflict with nature (I have to survive on this island), conflict with objects and equipment (my knife broke and I don't have another one), conflict with self (I must be losing my mind). You are unlikely to read about the things without conflict because they are boring. Things like breathing, and pooping, and eating, and wasting time on cat picture are conflict-less and thus never elaborated on unless there is a proiblem involving one of them. As to the specific examples: they are morally superior throught the glass of history yes, but that is life. And this is not omnipresent either. There are plenty of people in China that see Ghengis Khan as a great hero even today. But in their own time they considered themselves moral, and there is a difference between Cultural Reletivism which says all cultures are morally equal in reality, and the less popular and buzzworded but just as signifigant Other Thing that says that all cultures personally consider themselves to be in the moral right. I think in reality good is objective. And so do the bad guys. And they are wrong. 5. "However, your statements on Archimedes and the Hundred Year War is exactly what I want with the story; making people discuss and argue which side is morally correct according to their definition of morality."
Exactly. 6. "Note: I actually want the story to be more morally grey, instead of Pure Good (white) vs Pure Evil (black). For the reasons I mentioned in the previous post."
I don't like Grey vs. Gray because I think is suffers from the same problem. I do like Blue and Orange morality though, and I think historically speaking Orange looks like White and Blue like Black when your live in an Orange country, and Blue looks like White and Organge like Black when you live in a Blue country. 7. "Pure Good vs Pure Evil is boring, IMHO. "
The Orks probably think debating the ethics of the Empire is boring too. =P Just look at them! Humans and Elves licving in harmony, destroying the forests, covering the ground in stone. Their ideas are evil! They are weak, and encourage weakness - if their god has his way every Ork will be de-fanged and his children will spend their days sewing silk dresses instead of learning to navigate the harsh ways of nature. Picture a dead world, a world with no strife, a world with no honor: this is the world that the Human and the Elf conspire to bring you! A world of peace spent kneeling in their white temples to lying gods! -----------
"Thanks for your $0.02, I hope nothing in my reply comes off as offensive to anyone."
Can't speak for others, but I will never be offended by honest and well-thought out discourse. You could say "That OneKelvin guy is objectively a piece of garbage.", and if you were still polite I would not be offended. I would disagree with you and ask for clarification and explanation, but honesty keeps people from lying and from withholding thoughts they think may be ill-received, so that which is honest and polite is not offensive to me regardless of subject matter or content. |
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Aug 5, 2017 14:53:11 GMT
This is precisely my issue with DnD morality. Also I'm taking your advice here, and doing this in Word. Thanks! You're right in many regards and I do know that about interest, in fact I believe I've said before "Conflict drives stories." I prefer not to label cultures in terms of lawful good and chaotic evil and neutral and whatnot because almost everyone will pick lawful or neutral good including people that are by modern Western Culture standards very evil. I don't know what objective "Good" in DnD terms is. Is it about intent? Even ISIS psychos think that they are doing the Good of Allah, and many cruel and dark cultures throughout history have been doing someone's good at the expense of someone else's. The Mongols thought destroying a city down to the dogs was just if the fear it caused prevented further warfare; and in Mongol legal terms it was lawful as well! So yeah. Lawful... Good... I think what Paul wants for the Empire is for it to be mostly good; kind of the blue kingdom on the map. I'm all for giveing it flaws, and many of those flaws can be internal I think as well as overall. America for example is a "lawful good" country, but it has crime, and poverty, and EPIC political disagreements within it, and those things are taken all the more seriously because of most American's allignment. So each point one-by-one. 1. "That is the question that drives the story. Made infinitely more interesting if everyone, not just the Empire, has their flaws. Flaws that cause problems, not mentioned once and blatantly brushed off for the rest of the tale. It doesn't have to be a corrupt government. It doesn't have to be evil in any way, but it has to be a flaw that causes problems.
Why? To make the story interesting and captivating. Your statements above are sound and solid, but if people wage war against the empire simply 'because they're not us' then who has the moral high ground and the reader's support? The Empire, obviously, since they're the victims.
But what if no-one's the victim? Everyone stabs and attack each other thanks to the flaws that cause problems. Everyone has valid, acceptable and sound reasons to do what they do, instead of just 'we'll attack them because they're not us' or 'fur the Evulz' or 'my god is better than your god' or even 'because its my definition of glory'."
Yes again I know this about stories. There needs to be conflict for the plot to go, and it is sometimes good to have morally ambiguous conflict because it makes things less clear-cut. Keep in mind, just because one side is the victims, doesn't mean they didn't have it coming. Now I think this has limits, and indeed I don't think the Lich King is going to care much about the moral high ground, but I do think that there is room for ambiguity amidst many of the cultures. Perhaps the Empire invaded them? Example: the Conquest of Mexico. There is a generally-held belif that (I do not share) that the Aztecs were morally superior because they were on the reciving end of an invasion, and they were technilogically inferior. And yet a bunch of adventurers slaughtering reletivly-poorly-equipped savages for gold and glory is what many players are in RPGs, and this is exactly what the Conquistadores thought of themselvs as: adventurers. And aside from being the "victims" the Aztecs don't really have the high ground morally; they sacrificed thousands of their negbors to thirsty blood gods, so many in fact that the final linup for the Fall of Tenocticlan is: 300,000 Aztec Warriors vs. 100 Spanish Cavalry, 50 Spanish Crossbowmen and Arqubusiers, 1000 Tercio and Roderelo Sword-and-Buckler men..... and 250,000 Angry-Pissed-Off natives who joined the Spanish because the Aztecs were massive douchenozzles. The Aztecs lost because they were jerks, victims or not. And which is more moral? Personal greed and desire to further one's station, or, fanatical devotion to a blood-thirsty-god? Both say themselves: The Conquistadors were mostly poor, using borrowed swords and old guns, they banded together to seek riches and fame they could not attain at home in Spain. They achived this by killing natives they considered to be Orks for their gold, and pitting the tribes against eachother when the Orks killed off most of them in the early part of the campaign. The Aztecs had a thriving civilization with agriculture, roads, mathematics and philosphy. A civilization complete with freindly old women, laughing children, and hard-working citizens. A civilization built on slave labor, and on the ceaslessly flowing blood of willing and unwilling human sacrifes they belived with conviction were nessisary to keep the rain falling and the world from ending. Sacrifices and slaves they obtained in "Flower Wars" with their neigbors, kidnapping on a massive scale, utterly dominating the other tribes to a point where they were hated so much that their neigbors would side with the pallid, alien forigners just to destroy them once and for all. 2. "What if the antagonist. has just as much reasons to do what they do as the heroes have to stop them? Why not try making each side of the conflict morally equal?"
Morally equal is boring, but morally justified is perfect in my opinion. 3. "Your note on Demacia from LoL is interesting. Why? because the Demacians' draconian view of 'justice' and their definition of 'good' causes problems for them and criticism flies at them. What makes it more interesting is the fact that the quote does not specify what is 'benevolence and mitigation' according to Demacian Law and how they apply 'fair and just consideration of the circumstances involved' in cases that involve people from outside Demacia (which may not be aware of the intricacies of Demacian Law). This has a huge potential to cause international problems in and of itself (potential plot hook if anyone wants to write a story)."
I like this, I dunno if it'll work for the Empire, you'll have to ask Paul what his vision for them is. 4. "The Aleutian Empire, right now, does not have this problem. They're painted with golden pigments as Lawful Good heroes and everything they do is justified by their god, who constantly communicates with them. This makes anyone that opposes them as automatically 'the bad guy' and thus morally inferior. This is my problem with the Empire. It's slowly becoming nation of Moral-Purity-Sues. Which makes it difficult to fulfill your statement (slightly edited): Just assume that everyone, even the bad guys antagonists believe that they are in the right for a good and logical reason."
I think this is exactly what the Empire thinks of itself, yes. And since the other gods communicate as well I suspect this is a common self-sentiment in many countries. 4. "Your comments on the Barbarians, Mongols, and Romans kind of specifies my beef with the Empire; The reason why conflict happens (and its outcome)is to make the reader sympathize with the victims, thus making them morally superior."
I disagree. I think conflict happens because peace is boring and mudane. And conflict isn't only conflict between people. You could have a story with a single character on an island and still have conflit enough for a plot. Conflict with nature (I have to survive on this island), conflict with objects and equipment (my knife broke and I don't have another one), conflict with self (I must be losing my mind). You are unlikely to read about the things without conflict because they are boring. Things like breathing, and pooping, and eating, and wasting time on cat picture are conflict-less and thus never elaborated on unless there is a proiblem involving one of them. As to the specific examples: they are morally superior throught the glass of history yes, but that is life. And this is not omnipresent either. There are plenty of people in China that see Ghengis Khan as a great hero even today. But in their own time they considered themselves moral, and there is a difference between Cultural Reletivism which says all cultures are morally equal in reality, and the less popular and buzzworded but just as signifigant Other Thing that says that all cultures personally consider themselves to be in the moral right. I think in reality good is objective. And so do the bad guys. And they are wrong. 5. "However, your statements on Archimedes and the Hundred Year War is exactly what I want with the story; making people discuss and argue which side is morally correct according to their definition of morality."
Exactly. 6. "Note: I actually want the story to be more morally grey, instead of Pure Good (white) vs Pure Evil (black). For the reasons I mentioned in the previous post."
I don't like Grey vs. Gray because I think is suffers from the same problem. I do like Blue and Orange morality though, and I think historically speaking Orange looks like White and Blue like Black when your live in an Orange country, and Blue looks like White and Organge like Black when you live in a Blue country. 7. "Pure Good vs Pure Evil is boring, IMHO. "
The Orks probably think debating the ethics of the Empire is boring too. =P Just look at them! Humans and Elves licving in harmony, destroying the forests, covering the ground in stone. Their ideas are evil! They are weak, and encourage weakness - if their god has his way every Ork will be de-fanged and his children will spend their days sewing silk dresses instead of learning to navigate the harsh ways of nature. Picture a dead world, a world with no strife, a world with no honor: this is the world that the Human and the Elf conspire to bring you! A world of peace spent kneeling in their white temples to lying gods! -----------
"Thanks for your $0.02, I hope nothing in my reply comes off as offensive to anyone."
Can't speak for others, but I will never be offended by honest and well-thought out discourse. You could say "That OneKelvin guy is objectively a piece of garbage.", and if you were still polite I would not be offended. I would disagree with you and ask for clarification and explanation, but honesty keeps people from lying and from withholding thoughts they think may be ill-received, so that which is honest and polite is not offensive to me regardless of subject matter or content. Well, it seems that I've used several wrong words to express my opinion, but at least my previous post remains coherent enough for you to understand what I'm trying to say. Sorry, English is my second language so some of my words may seem a bit confusing. So yeah, as soon as Paul finishes developing the Empire on his end we forumites can start developing their flaws and making sure that every side of the conflict is morally justified*, in order to make people discuss and argue which side is morally correct according to their definition of morality. Oh and thanks for not being offended by my $0.02. I've seen some people rage and flip out once they read that someone has a different opinion than them. Thanks for not being one of those people. Note: I really should read more about Blue vs Orange morality. Your short explanation on it seems interesting, seems like it has to do with one's point-of-view or experience or something similar. *should've used those two words instead of 'morally equal'. |
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Post by onekelvin on Aug 5, 2017 16:33:53 GMT
"Well, it seems that I've used several wrong words to express my opinion, but at least my previous post remains coherent enough for you to understand what I'm trying to say. Sorry, English is my second language so some of my words may seem a bit confusing.
"I wouldn't worry too much: you type your second language better than many speak their first, and I appreciate your dedication to achieving precision of meaning. Most people have their off days, myself included; t'would be poor form for me to criticize from such a position. "So yeah, as soon as Paul finishes developing the Empire on his end we forumites can start developing their flaws and making sure that every side of the conflict is morally justified*, in order to make people discuss and argue which side is morally correct according to their definition of morality.
"Indeed. It'll be interesting, that's for certain. "Oh and thanks for not being offended by my $0.02. I've seen some people rage and flip out once they read that someone has a different opinion than them. Thanks for not being one of those people.
" Having one's opinions or beliefs challenged can be uncomfortable, if one isn't used to the feeling. I think this is a good thing; such discomfort prevents one from becoming complacent in their beliefs, and motivates personal growth. But it is easy to let emotions run such matters. Emotion is a fickle creature, and if discomfort is allowed to turn into annoyance then anger will follow, and intolerance after that. Best I think, to accept discomfort with grace and put it to purpose, rather than to let it do such to you.
"Note: I really should read more about Blue vs Orange morality. Your short explanation on it seems interesting, seems like it has to do with one's point-of-view or experience or something similar.
"By all means, read away!"*should've used those two words instead of 'morally equal'."There's always next time. =)
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Aug 5, 2017 17:10:04 GMT
"Having one's opinions or beliefs challenged can be uncomfortable, if one isn't used to the feeling. I think this is a good thing; such discomfort prevents one from becoming complacent in their beliefs, and motivates personal growth. But it is easy to let emotions run such matters. Emotion is a fickle creature, and if discomfort is allowed to turn into annoyance then anger will follow, and intolerance after that. Best I think, to accept discomfort with grace and put it to purpose, rather than to let it do such to you." Whoa.../hits blunt I am SO taking that quote. We can actually feature this in the story, perhaps said by someone wise... |
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Post by onekelvin on Aug 6, 2017 4:53:06 GMT
By all means; just make sure they have a beard, robe, and an obsession with tea. |
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admin
Site Admin
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Post by admin on Aug 6, 2017 7:54:29 GMT
Hey guys, some great discussion here.
With regards to flaws in the Empire, there are a few. The most notable is the heir apparent - 16 years old and clinically insane, he has been extending his influence with his own inner circle and the current Emperor, who is advanced in age and dotes on his son who he had late in life, is causing some major tensions. It is this heir apparent who has refused to assist the Colonists in the Kingdom of Thane, claiming that they deserve what is coming to them as the colonial expansion is not officially sanctioned but an organic movement.
As this Emperor is the last of the Imperial line, the future of the Empire is uncertain. Perhaps somewhere there is a distant relative who lives in obscurity and is legitimate enough to continue the bloodline if the current Dynasty is extinguished. This could eventually devolve into civil war, as loyalists to the original principles of the Empire may launch a rebellion - grooming the distant heir for greatness..
The above story arc aside, while it is a society where church (Cleric and Paladins) and state bolster each other and are more or less equal (the Emperors authority comes directly from the Paragon) - there will be cases of local corruption, but generally it does not last long.
Part of the reason why the empire is so goody goody is because the people face extisential threats from truly diabolical forces. People rally to and around the concept of the Empire - and it is guided by the hand of the Paragon even to this day through the priesthood and Holy orders, it tends to correct any deviations from its original principles.
The Empire is quite tolerant and not hell bent on conquest and most of their suzerian states became vassals by choice as it benefited them greatly to get access to Imperial trade, defence treaties and other assistance.
Noktorikon should not have anyone there against there will - my thoughts are that it is far removed from the original concepts of exploring the secrets of the universe to much more practical applications of magic to benefit the empire and for military purposes (battle mages). Agents of Nokotikon scour the countryside looking for young people with natural magical talent and offer them training and pay their families an allowance that is generous and makes joining very desirable, not to mention the prestige of becoming an Imperial Battle mage or spell caster. Independent mages exist and are not persecuted unless they commit a crime. If a mage commits a crime, a special 'witch hunter' group will be dispatched to hunt them down - perhaps these witch hunters are warlocks based in Noktorikon too - magic users who use spells to nullify magical attacks and subdue or kill renegade magic users who abuse their powers.
The Sylvan Smith: Good to see you back! I waited a while but have developed the map and basic seed ideas for Silverwater on its own dedicated page like the other areas now. Please have a gander and feel free to make suggestions, changes, etc.
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