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Post by salanizi on Jul 19, 2017 16:40:49 GMT
Hello, I was scanning through the WKC Germany website, and found a couple of very nice historical sabers, namely the French 1822 and French F1 (isnt that the modernized version of the former?) WKC - French 1822WKC - French F1The people behind the website are very helpful and good at replying at emails, I asked about the steel and they said they can be ordered in stainless or carbon whichever is preferred. I am just waiting on their answer with regards to the weight of the swords without the scabbard. Has anyone had any experience with WKC? Logic states that they should be able to make better swords than their Indian counterparts. I know that they are probably the last major sword manufacturer still in production, or are they? Homemade blades or made in India? Cheers!
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Post by 28shadow on Jul 19, 2017 17:29:46 GMT
I'd also like to hear about this. Following.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 17:52:04 GMT
Upper $$$
The standard question of "What are you going to do with it?" comes to mind. WKC as both a company and families goes way back. They bought the Wilkinson tooling. They are a major maker and distributor of military swords around the world.
Will they buy India made non-stainless swords and sell them to you with a WKC stamp? That I don't know for sure but the pricing would likely show the difference (but maybe not). Their katana are purportedly bought from China under supervision.
For the money and purposes, look to sharpened Cold Steel offerings to fill the "slayer" role but if looking to spend money on even using sound antiques or just for collecting, go old every time.
A sword from WKC will cost a lot more than just laying down half (or less than half) for a sharpie India reproduction.
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Post by bfoo2 on Jul 20, 2017 6:57:53 GMT
I took a look at some of the WKC offerings, and I'm not really pleased with the definition and depth of the blade features (central ridges, fullers, etc).
I suspect that these weapons are made for parade/display rather than handling or cutting. These are made to official military specs and are thus of presumably higher quality than Universal/WEI. I recall a post by an armed services member on another form saying to the effect that if you show up to muster with a Universal/WEI sword, the inspecting officer won't be impressed to say the least. Windlass sells a "premium" range of "official" military swords (for around $500 each) but last I checked they were ambiguous as to whether these would meet military specification.
Also, I understand that there are still a few swordcutters around besides WKC, although they're the big one since they do the US patterns. William Scully operates out of Montreal, and there's a sword cutter in England whose name escapes my memory, but they only do the UK/Commonwealth swords.
If you're looking for handling or cutting, go antique or lower end repro. I suspect that while WKC might meet whatever military specification that Gunnery Seargent Hartman is looking for, they will actually be WORSE in the handling department judging by the pictures of the blades.
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Post by salanizi on Jul 20, 2017 19:20:54 GMT
Indeed as bfoo2 has mentioned, the fuller on the 1822 does not seem accurate to the historical examples AFAIK. However the hilt and scabbard seem to be better put together than the Indian production. I have also contacted Pooley Sword Co. and although they only deal with commonwealth models, their Household Cavalry Sword is beautiful and comes from a time when the sword was designed to be used, and indeed it seems brash enough: What is most important is that they confirmed that they are actually made in Sheffield, UK and not India.
What is important here is the question whether these manufacturers can fill the gap between the lower quality Indian examples, and the much more expensive custom makers??? Now as to the Wilkinson Factory tooling, Pooley, Windlass, and WKC all claim to have purchased some of that machinery...
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Post by bfoo2 on Jul 21, 2017 3:05:56 GMT
I have also contacted Pooley Sword Co. and although they only deal with commonwealth models, their Household Cavalry Sword is beautiful and comes from a time when the sword was designed to be used, and indeed it seems brash enough: Crisp and Sons was the one I was thinking of earlier and couldn't remember. (At the very least you couldn't ask for a more English name than "Crisp and Sons") In any case, there seems to be no shortage of makers for Commonwealth swords. WKC seems to be the only maker for US pattern swords I can find. I understand that there were a plethora of manufacturers that would do US swords up until the 1980s (NS Meyer, Spartan, Gemsco, etc) but they seem to have fallen by the wayside as far as I can tell.
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Post by Afoo on Jul 21, 2017 20:33:28 GMT
A friend of mine got a Canadian navy sword from Poole I think. Bloody expensive.... Could say that it *sunk* her finances for a little while
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Post by salanizi on Jul 22, 2017 13:18:24 GMT
A friend of mine got a Canadian navy sword from Poole I think. Bloody expensive.... Could say that it *sunk* her finances for a little while Yes but was the quality like?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 22, 2017 15:53:54 GMT
Windlass sells a "premium" range of "official" military swords (for around $500 each) but last I checked they were ambiguous as to whether these would meet military specification. I was not aware that Windlass was offering a premium range of official swords. I did stumble on a Windlass recently for $830 when searching for a M1840 NCO sword. So that explains that. I must say that it looked nothing like what it was claimed to be. Whether the fault was with the vendor or Windlass I do not know. I suspect the vendor. The sword lacked a fuller and the hilt was all wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2017 19:40:17 GMT
The current US Army nco sword is not the m1840 nco
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 22, 2017 20:26:59 GMT
The current US Army nco sword is not the m1840 nco Than I stand corrected. What is? From Wikipedia “The M1840 has had a long service life, seeing frontline service from the Mexican War until the Spanish–American War. In 1868 the ordnance board recommended that no more leather sword, or bayonet scabbards be purchased, so after the leather ones were used up, a black Japanned steel scabbard was substituted, along with a new pattern leather frog. It remained in service as a ceremonial weapon until general orders No. 77 dated August 6, 1875 discontinued its use. A modern version of this sword with steel scabbard is currently permitted for wear by US Army platoon sergeants and first sergeants; in practice it is rarely seen outside the 3rd Infantry Regiment (the "Old Guard") and honor guards. Some army NCOs have this sword and wear it for social occasions, regardless of duty as a platoon sergeant or first sergeant.” A M1840 is commonly unofficially given to a retiring senior NCO by his subordinates. As occasionally a family member to a close family member. Here is one being awarded to an outstanding graduating NCO.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2017 21:45:41 GMT
"Than I stand corrected. What is?"
The sword you see listed at WKC and Windlass as the adopted and regulation US Army nco sword, which was developed around the same time as the m1902 sword for all officers. The "modern version" as you will. While looking a bit like a German civilian/postal degen, it also shares some form with the US 1840 general officer sword, which was basically similar to the nco sword but more the profile/pommel of the British 1796 infantry nco sword but with a cast grip.
While folk continue to remark about the m1840 being used, even ceremonially, they might be better served by simply using nco. That video is inconclusive to me but close enough to mention that the pommel shows more of a capstan than the bump on an m1840. We never see the blade.
Using Wikipedia as an authority also kind of fraught with misconceptions. I can understand folk would rather spend on new swords instead of books and pursuing reproductions instead of period items but even when I am guilty myself at times, I don't put the blinders on and stop at a Wiki article.
I would also point out (again) that there are still literally tonnage of period ACW m1840 nco swords out there for sale.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 23, 2017 2:01:31 GMT
I understand what you are saying but other than what I think you are claiming as a look-alike it is not a M1840 but called a NCO sword. I can assure you that the sword has a designation and not on the books only as Sword, NCO. We are 177 years down the road since the sword was adopted and it cannot be expected to be produced now and with the same exact specifications that Ames and the other companies originally produced it. Changes in manufacturing processes sometimes necessitate a change in the end product. I’ve seen the authorization dates and what changes were made on the M1903 rifle and there were many over the years. Ditto for the carbine. The changes reflected on the M1840 sword is hinted at with “A modern version of this sword”
I was a mustang and the whole time in I never saw a NCO sword. I did hear comments such as “it’s strange to see made in India on an American sword”. The only sword that I saw was the officer’s sabre and that was by chance. It was being hand carried and the courier stopped by in route for some reason and laid it on the table. Several of us examined it. I was not impressed and remember thinking that it was no more than a play pretty. Later the phrase “It’s swell, it’s Mattel” came to mind.
At one point I was the RGT’s S3 and the library fell under my responsibility and I might have been able to find the answer there although 99% of the books were FMs. But that is now history.
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Post by Afoo on Jul 23, 2017 2:58:11 GMT
A friend of mine got a Canadian navy sword from Poole I think. Bloody expensive.... Could say that it *sunk* her finances for a little while Yes but was the quality like? It would not have been worth it had it not been for a special occasion in which an official service sword was required.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 3:23:24 GMT
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