Originally posted by Vincent Dolan:
A creative Air Mage could also indirectly manipulate other elements. Recall Aang "earthbending" in the first season of Avatar by using a gust of wind to lift a boulder; with enough control, one could theoretically lift a massive boulder and drop it on someone, crushing them. Or, more simply, do what Aang did with the coal, also in season 1: wind tunnel bullets. The highest recorded (non-tornado) wind speed in the real world is currently 253mph/408kmh. A small apple or even grape sized rock could easily kill, well... Just about anything (for reference, a regular old sling can propel a lead shot about 62mph/100kmh and can embed its projectile into skulls).
Manipulating water indirectly would be less dramatic until you got to the higher echelons of skill, but again, creativity could let an Air Mage do most things a Water Mage could do. Another oft overlooked aspect of air manipulation is the sheer fact that everything travels through it. A skilled Air Mage wouldn't need to fight in the shade, because a simple watershed of concentrated air would deflect everything sent their way. Or they could simply do the opposite and solidify the air around them. Impenetrable armor that literally weighs nothing (or the closest thing to it, anyway) without obstructing vision, hearing, or breathing? Move over Master Chief, we've found our new one man army. Alternatively, the stealth applications are numerous. The enemy can't hear you if the sound never reaches their ears, yet you could just as easily draw their voices to you from greater distances than otherwise possible.
With enough creativity, it's less about making up for air's weaknesses and more about making it not the most versatile and OP thing ever in terms of elemental magic.
sevicler Browsing dchisenh's wall of text, I'd say it's rather difficult to know where to start, but dchisenh's on the right track by making much of it limited by a mage's personal capacity for magic. I do have a few thoughts on a couple of the schools:
Arcane - A form of Vancian magic; that is, spells require the same amount of energy at the time of casting regardless of actual difficulty, but must be paid and prepared in advance. Essentially, each person has a capacity for a number of spells they can cast on any given day. A baseline (novice level) could be, say, five spells per day. It could be trained through hard work and study to increase all the way up to, say, twenty. This gives the individual mage a greater potential versatility by allowing them to study multiple types of magic and being able to use them all equally, but keeps things balanced by severely limiting the number of spells they can actually cast during a given day so they're not just flinging them around like it's going out of style. Not too dissimilar from classic D&D.
--> As an example, say a mage has the capacity for 7 spells a day. They choose to prepare two Fireballs, two Wards, one Tame Animal, one Mid Heal, and one Teleport. Fireball and Ward are pretty simple, say, Level 1 spells that most Arcanists learn early on, so they only need a storing and concentration of energy in advance; Tame Animal could be a Level 2 and requires a small ritual, the burning of various animal hairs taken from whatever animal you might want to tame alongside the storing of energy. Mid Heal could be a Level 3 and requires the imbuing of medicinal herbs with magical energy and then burning them in a specific order for specific lengths of time. Teleport, on the other hand, could be something like a Level 6 spell and requires weeks of preparation, as well as specific tools to be used with it. So really, in this example, this specific mage's actual capacity is only 6 spells a day, because they're going to hang onto that Teleport spell until they absolutely have to use it.
Divine - dchisenh has a pretty decent setup here, though I would add a little to it in the form of domains: a Divine practitioner's power, in addition to being directly related to their devotion to their patron deity and their power reflecting their patron's collective power, they are also empowered or weakened based on where worship of their deity is strongest or weakest. I.e., a follower of the Lhasan War God would be a demon on the battlefield in their home territory where all pray to the War God for victory in battle, but once they leave Lhasa and enter lands where he is less well known or even completely unknown, their power wanes a bit and they merely become an exceptional soldier. A follower of the Aleutian Goddess of Medicine could create elixirs that could revive someone hovering between life and death to the picture of perfect health most anywhere in the Empire, but outside, they'd just be a great apothecary. Conversely, given that some deities are actually reviled in other cultures, there could even be negative effects, such as the Lhasan warrior being a powerful, but clumsy fighter or the Aleutian healer just as likely to poison as to cure their patients. Such a system would discourage Divine mages from getting involved in foreign power struggles where their power would be weakened, though it would also naturally lead to zealots determined to forcefully spread word of their deity to enhance their power (thus defining irony as that leads to revulsion and the negative effects).
Spiritual/Oriental - I like dchisenh's idea of renaming it "Dragon" Magic, but as an alternative, I propose "Talisian" given the style's reliance on talismans. I think this one could best be made into a combination of runic magic and Japanese onmyodo; specifically, ofuda and shikigami in the latter's case. Basically, this type of magic, as dchisenh mentioned, requires devoting oneself to various dragons to achieve the powers one desires. More specifically, most of the dragons are lazy creatures with infinite pools of energy and don't really care who uses it or how as long as they receive tribute in the form of adoration, treasure, and occasionally food. This type of magic could be similar to Divine magic, but with the main difference being in that someone can only devote themselves to a single deity, while you can devote yourself to multiple dragons. Beyond that, dchisenh talked about it becoming "how to ask" and I think that's where the runes and ofuda come in: the dragon can give hints on how to prepare a talisman, but once it's learned, it can be used repeatedly and with little preparation; often as fast as the talisman can be penned. It's essentially a fusion of Divine and Arcane, taking the best aspects of both and leaving out the worst, but because dragons are extremely long lived and very lazy, getting the hints on the "how to ask" part can be very difficult and take years for a single talisman, so many opt for a simple trial and error, which results in lesser versions of the dragon given spells at a faster rate. It also results in many injuries and some deaths. However, the trade-off is flexibility in casting and the ability to raise golems (the shikigami) to do one's bidding.
Alternative - This one just mainly needs to be properly defined before pros and cons can really be attributed to it. Since dchisenh seemed to go more for a harmonious approach in their description, I think this could include Druidic magics, which could include shapeshifting and plant growth, as well as more natural healing instead of the all-at-once of Divine, but it could also include things like Sun magics, which involves absorbing energies from the sun to accomplish various feats, though it's mostly physical enhancement magics, as external spells could get out of hand very quickly; then again, being able to create bursts of fire at will, even wildfires, could create an interesting dichotomy with the previous Druidic magics and the fact they're both put into the same category results in mild tensions between the two groups whenever they meet.
I really don't have much for the rest, though I think that Charm, Compulsion, and Illusion could be put into a super-category called "Deceptive Magics"; they could be outlawed in areas, heavily regulated in others, etc. Illusion would be more of a gray area depending on how it's structured: if it requires constant management (as in, the caster has to continually focus on maintaining the illusion), it'd be fine and could even have combat applications in addition to its less savory uses. However, if it's just something you can cast and forget, then it would need to be outlawed like the other two, as it could easily be used to counterfeit currency or create forgeries of valuable items, which would play merry hell with national economies. Alternatively, both variations could be present and that's why it's a gray area.
___________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Sevicler:
I agree with everything else, but I'd like to discuss these two.
Arcane: Limiting the amount of spells that can be cast each day would make magic casters a little inflexible, don't you think? Instead, why don't we apply both the standard mana gauge and limited amount of spells. For example; a magic caster of a certain level of expertise can choose to 'prime' seven spells each day. These 'primed' spells can be used without casting time/certain other penalties at a moment's notice, like your example but still uses mana/energy. However, any other spells in the magic caster's arsenal can still be used, albeit with penalties such as increased casting time or costing more mana or even requiring material costs. In addition, I'd like to introduce something I called 'primaris spells' (working name) where these spells are relatively weak, but can be used at a moment's notice as if they were 'primed'. An example of a 'primaris spell' could be a basic 'fireball' or 'magic missile'. Of course, 'primaris spells' could only be taken by relatively high-level magic casters, for the sake of balance.
Divine: I like your ideas on each god's domain. However, instead of dividing the domains by territory, why don't we divide them by faith instead? Say, a follower of the Aleutian Goddess of Medicine could create elixirs that could revive someone hovering between life and death to the picture of perfect health but only to those who worship the same god. The same apothecary could still create elixirs for anyone else, but those not worshiping the god would have slightly diminished effects. Those who worship a god opposing the Goddess of Medicine would have significantly penalized effects.
Again, my $0.02
_____________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Vincent Dolan:
Fair point. Hmm. With the Primed Spells, I think that instead of limiting them to a single use (and you're right, it does make them a bit inflexible, though it would make them more tactical about it), each Primed Spell has a number of uses before it has to be re-Primed; reloading the gun, so to speak.
The Primaris Spells could, if we continue my leveled example, be Level 0 spells: that is, they're the most basic of basic spells that are simple enough that they can be cast without restraint, with the trade off naturally being that they're rather weak. I can think of three decent examples, jumping off yours.
First would be Fireball; it fires a basketball sized ball of flames that strikes the target with a slight concussive force (about like being kicked in the chest by a person) and will singe the person, possibly lighting something on fire if it's particularly flammable, but really doing more in the way of fear than actual damage.
Second would be Mana Bolt; a dart shaped missile of raw energy, it hits about with the force of a paintball round and discharges a small electric shock to the impact site, which can cause slight twitching for a second or two afterwards. It travels faster than Fireball, but is much smaller (about the size of a baseball) and so can miss easier.
Third would be Barrier; creates a hemispherical barrier over the caster to protect them from incoming attacks. Its strength depends on the strength of the caster, but it can be fired out of. However, it's stationary, so the caster has to dispel it and recast it if they want to move it.
For Divine, that's a good idea. We could also mix the two; that is, it started as an actual, physical location that moored most of the deity's power in their followers, but as people started spreading out across the continent and people of other cultures professed their devotion to these deities, it became more practical to make the bonuses primarily based on shared patron... I'd call them Families, but that smacks a bit too much of Dan Machi, which has various deities from mythology descending to the mortal plane and starting Familias, granting humans power and blessings in return for... Something (I legitimately don't remember, it's been so long since it was explained; I think it had something to do with the transience and mutability of humans fascinating them). Anyway, I think they should still get a small boost in their home region in addition to a familial boost, which could lead to some interesting conflicts between various groups as they try to define what exactly "home region" means; is it where worship of that particular deity was founded or is it where the largest number of followers gather?
______________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Sevicler:
This I agree with.
Looks like we can wrap up the basics of the magic system in a bit.
Thanks for everyone's suggestions.
EDIT: I probably should come up with another name for 'Primaris Spells'. I recently found out that Games Workshop used the word to describe a type of spell in Warhammer 40k's Psychic System. I don't really wanna mess with copyright, especially since these guys are the same guys who tried to copyright the word 'Space Marines'.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Dchisenh:
Well, I only have a minute free right now so I'll come back to this post address things in more detail, but it seems like we could have a better sense of how spell casting and those limitations can be considered once we start on a general spell list.
Maybe folks can start listing what types of spells they'd like to see so we can figure out where they might fit in the framework above and help us see what needs to be added or tweaked.
I'm seeing some Japanese references I know little to nothing about so some more info on them would be appreciated, also referencing to some air bending abilities I also am not well versed in, is that more of a psychic ability as an extension of telekinesis in moving elements or is it more of a direct interaction with the elements themselves, sort of a variation in geomancy?
_________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Sevicler:
Well, spell lists aren't a priority yet. Right now, we're focusing on rules that magic works by, which is what I'm referring to as 'the basics of the magic system'. Once the rules are established then its easy to come up with spell lists.
We'll tackle each step one by one.
_________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Dchisenh:
Hey Sev, the reason I thought we should get some spell lists together now is that it seems some folks are interested in having magic abilities that fall outside of traditional fantasy magic, seeming to incorporate more anime or Japanese traditions. So in order to try to accommodate that we might need to see if we can fit those abilities into our framework or create a different subcategory for them.
As it stands, the default fantasy type magic (wizards and witches with fireballs and curses) is a given, also there is a lot of flexibility to that system when you include devotion-based Divine magic as granted by deities and dragons. Psychic abilities are popular and have been mentioned with interest, and likewise there appears to be a call for some Japanese anime derived abilities (most I'm not familiar with but the examples shown seem to be quite overpowered). My concern is that someone who would prefer to set their stories and characters in a more traditional atmosphere be turned off by the presence of laser swords and transmutable exoskeletons; and likewise someone who enjoys that may feel constrained in a traditional setting.
I hope we could find a middle ground where those abilities can find a place in this world, but not become so overpowering they destroy the balance.
I'm going to do some reading today on some of the more traditional D&D magic from a 5e D&D wiki page I found the other day, as well as some Pathfinder info over at D20 www.d20pfsrd.com/
if you're interested. Since Paul mentioned earlier "Magic: D&D style spells and magic use are in effect, but fleshing out the new schools of high magic and necromancy is a great idea and everything suggested valid.", I think that's a good place to start and it seems at a cursory glance Pathfinder has already tried to incorporate some more unusual backgrounds and magics to their framework.
___________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Dchisenh:
Also, in accordance with Vincent's suggestion of some Divine magic limitations based on the deity, I think that's a good idea, similar to the Lich King's ability to raise the dead based the location from him. The gods likely have the strongest power the closer to the location of the gods themselves; in an Imperial Pantheon akin to Mount Olympus or where the gods 'reside' in a temple dedicated to them. Their relative power can diminish as they leave areas where they aren't worshiped and maybe in their main temple their power is almost absolute..like seeking shelter against the strongest of foes inside the temple of the God of Mercy, or something like that.
Likewise, their ability to act through their conduit (the devotee casting Divine magic in their name) could also be enhanced or diminished based on the caster's target...a pious worshiper of a particular god may be able to heal themselves greater for the same amount of effort as only healing a non-believer a small amount, but they may be able to heal a fellow believer just as much as themselves.
That would give various gods and deities more relevance and could add to the overall flavor of the world.
____________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Dchisenh to Ramses1079's post on his character Lameth:
I hate to say it, but that sounds crazy overpowered.
____________________________________________________________________________________________Sevicler's reply to the same:
I agree. This guy is way too overpowered (sadly, doesn't make him intriguing). I certainly hope he's not your main character nor does he play a big role in the story. Sorry, but no one likes 'gary stu' characters. And sadly this guy ticks nearly all the 'gary stu' checklist (the only thing he's lacking is a harem). I suggest dialing down on the 'chosen one','superpower' and 'unique one-of-a-kind weapon-that-can-kill-anything-ever' aspects of your character description. I hope this doesn't offend you, though.
One other suggestion; if you decide to keep him as he is, why not make him some sort of deity? He doesn't actively involve himself in the story but is constantly referred to and spoken about by his followers, which is also how people know of his powers and capabilities.
ANYWAYS, ARE WE DESIGNING CHARACTERS NOW???!
Here's a little guideline to prevent anyone from making mary sue/gary stu characters:www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm
It's in the form of a quiz. You'll have to see for yourself, though.
____________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Sevicler:
Incorporating anime-style magic will be difficult. Nearly every anime I've ever seen has magic systems that are CRAZY overpowered, with no clear limits as to what each character can do. Many of these characters can suddenly pull out new powers out of their butts as the story demands.
Most anime don't even have magic systems. Instead, magic is designed around individual characters in order to make each character 'unique and stand out' just as much as their multi-colored hair (no offense). This obviously results in no consistency nor solid rules regarding magic as magic 'simply exists'.
Believe it or not, my stories on Notarikon and Temple Nimbus is in parts inspired by Japanese Anime (Castle in the Sky)
We are NOT including laser swords lol. They're too imbalanced (ignores armor and deflects magic??). Of course, a magic caster skilled in the 'Light' and 'Fire' element could temporarily conjure a pseudo-lightsaber that sets things on fire, but this is supposed to be a high-level spell and cannot be sustained for more than a minute and can be dispelled by another caster (basically a niche use for ripostes or desperate defense weapon).
I haven't actually read anything on Pathfinder. I should probably do that.
Again, my $0.02
__________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Sevicler:
My own and Vincent's suggestions on Arcane and Divine magic basically translates to 'The god's domain is faith and territory' so yes this could be included.
__________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Alan Schiff:
A couple thoughts here. IMHO I think we're starting to make things too complicated. If this were an actual D&D campaign setting, all of these rules and limitations might make sense, but I don't see the need for several pages-worth of rules to govern magic in this situation. We're developing a world for stories, not a tabletop RPG; the reader doesn't need to know or care about exactly how many spells a caster of Nth level gets per day.
That said, I like the Anima Mea basis: a spellcaster's power is limited by their "life essence." A novice caster can only use so much, a couple of minor spells-worth, before they have to rest and recuperate. Practice increases one's stamina, so the longer you practice the art, the more spells you can cast before running out of steam. This goes for both arcane and divine magic, not sure how talisman magic fits in exactly.
Anima Vestra can be used in conjunction with Anima Mea to siphon enough life essence to cast the spell, but it's a more limited resource. There's only so much essence one can pull from plants or animals. The larger the source, the more you can pull, so a blade of grass is of less assistance than a mature oak tree, and a sparrow less than an ostrich. However, to keep this from getting OP, the caster still needs to use some of his own essence. Maybe 50/50? Also, pulling from other sentient races is considered taboo.
I'm personally not a fan of D&D-style "psionic" powers. They blur the lines with true magic too much. However, psychic powers like telepathy and telekinesis are ok. Some people (and some races) are inherently psychic; it's not something that can be learned. It is, however, more limited than true spell casting.
It hasn't come up in a bit, but a similar caution with monsters. We don't need to list every monster in every monster manual from each edition of D&D. I think we should start relatively small, and new monsters can always be added later. Goblins and orcs are a given, same as dragons, centaurs, etc. There are plenty of mainstream creatures from mythology to be had without delving into the Underdark.
Also, a note to everyone: beware infringing on intellectual property. We don't need Wizards of the Coast or a Deviant-Art artist to sue SBG because we stole their ideas.
Just my $0.02, hope it helps.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Freq:
the magic system is getting near as complicated as the one used in ars magica
Realms of Power
The overarching premise of the Ars Magica setting is that the "mundane" world of ordinary, physical existence is a place where four great supernatural forces have varying degrees of influence and presence.
The Divine realm
This is the supreme, holy force of Creation - God as represented by the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions, and his agents in the world. Divine influence diminishes anything not attuned to it (i.e. anything of a Faerie, Infernal or Magical nature) and is categorically opposed to all things Infernal. One of the Order's struggles is in reconciling their avoidance of mundane politics with the inexorable spread of the Dominion (Divine influence permeating the land as more land is settled by Christian and Muslim nations and more centers of Divine worship are constructed).
The Infernal realm
Satan and his demonic forces. In the medieval context, this includes everything from Satan himself to illnesses and bad smells. Demons are compelled to corrupt, destroy, and tempt all mortals to sin; while the Order of Hermes refuses to explicitly name the Infernal as their enemies (which it is assumed would draw too much attention and wrath to the Order), they have been forbidden from entering into agreements with Hell's minions ever since a corruption scandal nearly ruined House Tytalus in the 11th century. As the evil/negative counterpart to the Divine, Infernal power also weakens the effects of any Realm not attuned to Hell or other forsaken spaces. Infernally tainted forms of magic do exist, usually of great deceptive or destructive power, or acquired too easily for understanding, especially in order to tempt magi. Anyone in the Order found guilty of diabolism is expelled and hunted down.
The Faerie realm
Creatures of traditional fairy tales. These creatures are often capricious, sometimes malicious, but invariably addicted to (even dependent upon for their very existence) human attention, emotion and creative expression. Despite such considerations, Study of the Faerie realm can be rewarding to some. Magi are allowed to associate with the Fae (in fact, one House of the Order has become increasingly dominated by its members' pursuit of 'Faerie Magic') as long as they do not incur their wrath and thereby endanger their fellows.
The realm of Magic
A mysterious arcane force, to which all magi (among other rare entities) are inherently attuned. This is the power almost exclusively used to cast spells and enchant objects. Magic and Faerie have some positive resonance with each other, reflected in either aura's benefit to the other realm's powers, and in that remote or lost pagan traditions can have connections with either (in some cases, Faerie entities seem to have 'replaced' Magical ones when the devotees of the latter either lost their way or became extinct).
Additionally, a "Realm of Reason" appeared in the Third Edition. This was associated with skepticism and empirical observation, and its "rational aura" challenged most supernatural effects. Many fans of the game consider this to be paradoxical and inconsistent, since applying reason and rationality to the world of Ars Magica should really lead to the conclusion that magic does exist and fairies are real, etc., and yet the "True Reason" promoted by this fifth realm posited the contrary, and thus resembled a delusional (yet effective) state of mind rather than a rational one. The realm of Reason had additional counter-intuitive effects - for example, imposing penalties on wizard's magic use when in prominent mundane libraries, despite the predominant portrayal of Hermetic Magic as a scholarly pursuit.
The centerpiece of Ars Magica is the system of Hermetic Magic devised by Bonisagus. It consists of 15 Arts, divided into 5 Techniques and 10 Forms. This is sometimes called a "Verb/Noun" system: the Technique is the verb (what effect the magic has), and the Form is the noun (the entity, object or substance that is affected or brought forth). These 'verb-noun' combinations can be used to cast both Formulaic spells (which are recorded in texts, are learned through study and mastered through experience, and have known, fixed effects) and Spontaneous spells (which a caster improvises with no prior knowledge other than the Arts themselves, giving the potential results greater flexibility but lower potency). Every apprentice (with a few Ex Miscellanea exceptions) is "opened" in all 15 Arts before fully joining the Order; each Art begins with a Score of 0 and a mage may usually only increase one of them during a season (see below).
Each Technique is named by a first-person singular present tense indicative Latin verb:
Creo ("I create") brings objects and substances into existence from nothing, or makes an already-existing target a "more perfect" version of itself (e.g. healing magic, as healed bodies are nearer perfection than wounded bodies).
Intellego ("I perceive") detects or reveals, enhances a target's natural senses or conveys supernatural ones.
Muto ("I transform") alters the nature of a being, object or substance, adding unnatural traits and/or removing natural ones.
Perdo ("I destroy") decays, disintegrates or otherwise diminishes the target, making something a worse example of its kind (i.e. the opposite of Creo).
Rego ("I control") involves manipulation of the target in any way that does not alter its nature, e.g. direct a target's movement, put a creature to sleep, or force a tree to bear fruit out of season. This is the main Technique used in spells of protection or 'warding'.
Each Form is named by a singular accusative Latin noun:
Animal affects "all natural living things that are not plants or humans, doing to animals what Mentem and Corpus spells do to people" as well as "things made with animal products" such as leather, wool, cheese, silk, etc. Since bacteria were unknown in medieval times, illness (e.g.) was considered either a form of possession or an imbalance of 'bodily humors'; thus, magic dealing with disease is relegated variously to Creo, Mentem and/or Vim effects.
Auram affects lightning, wind and gaseous substances; other weather effects typically require an Aquam requisite (see below).
Aquam is used for any liquid, with the exception of blood (which requires Animal or Corpus magic to affect); non-liquid forms of water will involve requisites (see below).
Corpus (the incorrect declension Corporem was used in older editions) applies to the human body, making it crucial to longevity formulas.
Herbam primarily involves plants, but applies equally to any organic matter, living or dead, that is not of animal origin.
Ignem involves light and heat, and is heavily represented in the fire spells of House Flambeau.
Imaginem (previously Imagonem) deals with images, sounds, and other sensory stimuli (thus is involved in most illusionary effects).
Mentem deals with emotions, memories, thoughts and spirits.
Terram involves earth and minerals: mere soil is the simplest target, while stone, metal and gems require progressively greater investment of spell levels to achieve the same effect.
Vim ("power") involves magic itself, as well as demons (the overlap is not widely understood, but the fact that there is one is a significant obstacle to the Order's 'public relations', particularly concerning the Church).
A mage's skill when casting a spell is the sum of their scores in the appropriate technique and form.
Some spells involve more than one Technique, and/or more than one Form at once; each Art used in addition to the basic pair is called a requisite. All relevant Art Scores are compared: the caster's lowest Technique and lowest Form are used, reflecting the limiting of the caster's magical knowledge.
Regardless of how high one's Art Scores may rise, there are outer boundaries to the application of Hermetic Magic (whether Formulaic, Spontaneous or even Ritual). Bonisagus's theory outlines a set of inherent Limits, similar in concept to the laws of physics; the two central, 'Greater' Limits are:
Magic cannot influence a pure manifestation of the Divine; while earthly Relics (however sacred) and agents of the Divine (anything "separate from the mind of God") may be resistant to magic they are not immune, but it is impossible to (e.g.) interfere with a Miracle (which may be prayed for by an agent or supplicant, but is itself a direct intervention by Divine will).
Magic cannot permanently change a target's Essential Nature (the implications of which vary depending on the target in question).
There are also eleven 'Lesser Limits' (addressing more specific 'blind spots' such as aging, creation, time and the soul) which are generally thought either to derive from the two Greater Limits, or to be flaws in Hermetic Theory which may eventually be 'corrected'.
Additional statistics for every spell (which have been redefined in nearly every new edition of the game) are Target (what or whom the spell is directed at), Range (how far the Target may be from the caster), and Duration. For reasons of balance, some spells require the expenditure of "vis" - magical essence in physical form - which all magi and covenants tend to make a point of hoarding and/or trading. No Creo effect, for example, can be permanent unless vis is consumed during the casting. Some Formulaic Magic is so effective that it can only be achieved with vis and an elaborate, time-consuming ritual (hence, Ritual Spells). This automatically applies to any spell of a greater Level than 50, any spell with a Duration of 'Year', and any non-Imagonem spell with a range of 'Sight'.
super complicated but also very usefull in the right mind set, think we need to work more on the cultures before we ramp up the power of the individuals
__________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Ramses1079:
It may sound it, but he was only ever to serve as a "Great Equalizer" and as .I said, his aspirations were NEVER for world domination. What do you "Magic Systems Creators" think about starting your OWNtnread specifically FOR magic related discussions. Reason I bring it up is that once I start listing ALL the creatures I intend to, it's going to mess up conversations you guys are trying to have. Any thoughts? Oh plus we'll have to coordinate on "Summoning" and "Summoned Creatures." I love "summoning like Final Fantasy type creatures....minus Odin, Shiva, and Bahamut (obvious because they're deities). Also what about Planes of existence? In D&D there's the "Abyss" which has (you guessed it) 666 layers, each layer run by a Demi-God to God-level entity; and the 9 Hells, where Asmodeus is "The Prince." So is sewerage "mini-threads" agreeable so we're not talking all over each other??
__________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Ramses1079:
I would NEVER take offense to your opinion! Like I said he's not a "chosen one" or anything like THAT he just "clipped the wings"
of anyone who got TOO powerful to the point where they would bring about a Ragnarok/Armageddon type situation, and he was only a suggestion, not a "must have." As far as I understood it from Paul's words the only "Character Introductions" or storytelling.......which can't start till WE are done helping bulid the foundation for this world.....will be about the characters written for the weapons in the contest, the contest WINNER in particular. Personally, my weapon ideas were for/about the Elves and the Drow (or Dark Elves....which I absolutely LOVE as a sub-race). So anywho, separate "mini-threads" a good idea chaps? Meaning thread for magic/psionics......thread for Bestiary....Thread for Guilds....etc?
__________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Ramses1079:
Thanks for the .02 but as writer for the Bestiary it was never my idea, or intent to verbatim copy from the monstrous manuals....I've stated that several times. As far as magic goes, you'd have to Che with the Above blokes In Charge of magic and Psionics, and going by your response, you've OBVIOUSLY never "played" a psionicist. They are kept in check by PSP's (Psionic Strength Points) that would increase every level......keeping LOW LEVEL psionicists from being unstoppable. And Psionics are NOT subpar to magic. First off, " thought" which is the speed it takes to activate a Psionic ability, is way faster than spell casting (if you're following the story type of magic.....NOT like physically playing D&D. Everyone already had a chance to put their names up for whatever committee they wanted to join. If EVERYONE throws random thoughts out at the same time it's going to start arguments and just add to confusion. This requires a SYSTEM not random thoughts from people who couldn't be bothered to join one of the committees. 🙂
___________________________________________________________________________________________Reply by Adam Schiff:
Ramses, I never said nor implied that you were going to verbatim copy the monster manuals. I was only cautioning people who might now or in the future be involved with races and creatures.
Nor did I ever say that psionics was less powerful or more overpowered than regular magic. I said I personally don't care for it, that often there is no substantial difference between the two, so why have two systems? If a psionicist can do everything a spellcaster can, why not just be a spell caster? If divine casters and arcane casters do different things, then psionicists (or psychics, or whatever you want to call them) should be different too.
Paul said the committee thing was a good idea and that this would be figured out in the next few days, but that right now general brainstorming was the idea. It has only been 2 days. Not everyone is on the forum all the time, so you have to allow people time to read through everything new and gather their thoughts. I understand it's easy to get really gung-ho about the project and take off running, but not everyone works that way. As a general brainstorming session, seeing the public back-and-forth regarding the magic system, I had some input. Is this not a board-wide project? Eventually there ought to be more input than just from one or two people on a committee, when that is even official.
I don't know if your statement regarding not getting involved now if you didn't submit a weapon or story before was directed at me, but I have 2 thoughts. First, if it WAS directed at me, I did submit 2 weapons with backstories. Second, again, as this is supposed to be a project for all SBG members, it wouldn't be very fair if you could only participate now if you were able to submit a design. Not everyone is that artistic or creative when it comes to designing swords, but may have valid input for world-building.
Until Paul announces the winners, we may not know exactly whose stories/characters will be canon, which makes it a little difficult to set anything in stone. Again, right now Paul said general brainstorming is the idea.