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Post by admin on Aug 27, 2017 3:23:31 GMT
Okay, 2nd attempt at writing this out – first one was lost after an unexpected browser crash, so let’s see what I can remember.. First off, some background on the ‘gods’ and ‘dragons’ as what I wrote about the warrior monks does not necessarily derail what you guys were doing.. In many ways, it actually fits in there.. But I am getting ahead of myself. The Basic concept of ‘the gods’ in Eletreus is simple. Druidism evolved into the ‘Church of the All Father’ (sun god) and with the elevation of the Paragon to demi-god status (who was himself a member of the Church of the all father) worship of the 1st Paragon. It is more or less the same beliefs at the core for all three – the main difference is that the Druids worship the Sun and Moon God/Goddess equally and believe them to be aspects of a single all supreme being. The Church of the All Father relegates the Mother Goddess to a secondary role, because she can be a bit dark and unpredictable at times..  LIKE THE GODDESS, THE SWORD OF DANU ALSO HAS A DARK SIDE. IN THE HANDS OF AN EVIL PERSON, IT GETS REAL NASTY...OTHER GODS AND BELIEF SYSTEMSWhile the Druids/Church of All Father/Church of the Paragon all have the same root belief system – there are other beings who have elevated themselves to demi-godhood. The Northmen worship ancient chiefs who became demi-gods and were also subverted by the Fallen during the War in Heaven (more on that in a moment). The Thane rejected the gods early and later embraced the Fallen ones. And then there are the Ancient Dragons – Great Wyrms. Only 2 remain, but soon after the sun and moon goddess created the world, they also created the Dragons and were shocked when the Dragons, started warring among themselves.. (this is the Dragonage, and the War of the Dragons, when the world only had plants and animals). The Dragons that were killed off during this period became inter-dimensional beings. So in theory, they could still be the source for magics.. During this war, the Gods created the Watchers, Seraphim and other angelic beings to quell the violence and stop them from tearing the world apart. There is more detail over on the dedicated site, but a brief timeline from the age of the Dragons is as follows: • Elves arrive from another place, attracted by the forests, rivers and natural world.. They are not native to Eletreus but are welcomed by the Sun and Moon God. • More ‘visitors’ arrive, this time the Qahoori Nomads. Both of these events occur about 2000 years before humans are created.  THE MYSTERIOUS AND ENIGMATIC QAHOORI NOMADS• Humans were created by a ‘visiting’ trickster god, who makes humans as a mockery of the gods – as the gods natural form is human in appearance. The insinuation is that he does this on every inhabitable planet he can find – some guardian gods like the sun and moon god take umbrage and just kill them. The Sun and Moon Goddess of Eletrues took pity on them, and instructed the Watchers to – well – watch over them. Elves try to teach them too, but they split into tribes.. THE WAR IN HEAVENShemhazai rebels, and a War between the Angelic beings begins – Shemhazai and his group are now known as the Fallen. This War almost destroys humanity – and the fallen twist the living things into abominations and monsters to help them fight their war. This is the origin of Orcs, Hobgoblins, etc (though not Goblins, which are the wicked children of the dark aspects of the Moon Goddess). The War ends when Shemhazai is cast into the Abyss, but full of rage at his defeat, he enters the cursed sword, the Brand of the Fallen, and over thousands of years it makes its way to the world, creating the first DeathKnight.. The Angelic beings create its antithesis, and the war in heaven continues, but in a different form.. WARRIOR MONKS (ADEPTS).Now these guys do not derail the magic system, they fit within it.. They are also important to ensure that magic does not overshadow swordsmanship, so it combines the two. After all, we want to keep the focus on swords, right..? ;-) This is a bit of a long story – but the gist is as follows. Lhasa was founded before the war in heaven when the Gold Dragon found about 100 survivors who split from the early tribes, and took one wrong turn too many in the Badlands.. Having lost his own offspring during the Dragon Wars, he decides to adopt them all, and guides and protects them. Just before the war in heaven begins, increasingly taking on human form, he marries a human princess from Proto-Escia. During the war in heaven, he more or less sacrifices himself to save his people, and they escape the worst ravages of the war as a result. But it takes a huge toll on him and he falls into a slumber, which continues to the present day. However, after the wars are over, a mysterious being arises known as the Half Dragon Prince, and he teaches any who will listen deep secrets of meditation and internal energy manipulations to achieve Enlightenment. At the location where he ‘set up shop’ is now the Shaoshi temple (where the prince is still there, but has been meditating for hundreds of years and appears as a stone statue) and their powers are basically a variant of Anima Mea but limited to their own bodies.  A SHAOSHI ADEPT TRAINING WITH HIS ENERGY SWORDI wrote this better the first time around, but basically – these adepts cultivate their ‘Qi’ to be able to achieve superhuman feats such as temporarily suspending gravity, being able to transform their hands so they become as hard as steel, etc. If/Once mastery is achieved (and is a long hard road that few actually attain) they receive or make an ‘Energy Sword’ – which is kind of the reverse of a normal magic sword. To elaborate, most magic swords in Eletrues bestow powers ON the wielder. Some take time to unlock, but it is a top down set up. The Adept Energy Sword is bottom up – it has NO inherent powers, but simply acts as a focus for the Adept to channel his own energy/mana. In the hands of a non-adept, an Energy sword is completely mundane. In the hands of an adept, it becomes as light as a feather, as fast as quicksilver and as strong as stone – and its potential is almost limitless.. AND NOW (DRUMROLL), MY FEEDBACK ON THE MAGIC SYSTEMSo with the basics out of the way, here are my thoughts on each aspect of the magic system 3.0 ANIMA MEA/VESTRA – This is fine as is, and as noted, ties in with the Lhasian energy use. PRIMING SPELLS – I really like this concept! Perfect as is. CANTRIP SPELLS – I think this needs to be split up a bit. Fireball, etc are evocation spells as I see it. Instead, I propose we have greater and lesser Cantrips. Lesser Cantrips might be minor illusions, folk magic and divination by wisewomen, etc. It should be the most COMMON form of magic, for every true mage there should be a couple of hundred people who can learn some lesser cantrips. Greater Cantrips should be a catch all for what is currently listed as alternative and only usable by full mages. A NOTE ON MAGICAL TALENT: It should be that, except for extremely rare cases or dramatic events, you are either born with magical talent or you are not, and 99.999% of the population are in the ‘not’ category. So the magi from Noktarikon go out and search the lands for potential students, reimbursing their families (they can refuse, but most would want to go). Mages are powerful and rare, but minor magic is fairly commonplace. SCHOOLS OF MAGICArcane: Basically, mages, right? Divine: Clerics and priests. Yup, makes sense. Spiritual/Talismanic: This would also include making magic swords. I like the distinction, someone who makes talismans and magic blades would not necessarily be casting ‘magic missle’ and the like.. Alternative: As stated, I think this can go into cantrips and be replaced with ‘Adepthood’ Psychic/Psionic: Nice, so in theory someone you might call a Warlock could be focused on Talismanic Magic, Psionics and minor cantrips perhaps? While a mage would have lesser and greater cantrips, Arcane and possibly Talismanic? I do like the idea of some people not being magicians, but having innate powers. This would probably be more common among certain groups such as the Tuath. ADVANCED SCHOOLS OF MAGICBiomancy: Yup. OVERTIER: Yes, yes, and yes. CATEGORIES OF MAGICAbjuration: fine as is. This is also used by the Warrior Monks in a different form. Conjuration: Yes, but this should include elemental control as the first step. Before you conjure a flaming fire elemental, you would practice to control one first. So I think that the Elemental control caretegory can be collapsed into Conjuration. Evocation: As stated earlier, some of the Cantrips really belong in here. Again, the Warrior Monk Adepts would use a variant of this. The energy rarely leaves their body except in the classic ‘death touch’ or as a blast of raw mana. Deceptive: Yup, sounds good. Necromancy: Yucky, but fine as is. ADDITIONAL IDEASTwo things stand out that I think should be addressed. Turning Undead and Astral Perception/Projection TURNING UNDEADThis is a D&D term, so we need something original, but the idea is not really limited to D&D. Evil Clerics should be able to attempt to control undead, while good ones should be able to make them run away or destroy them with a sliver of raw solar (sun god) power. ASTRAL PERCEPTION/PROJECTIONThis is a classic component of the Shadowrun magic system (probably the best and most realistic I have seen in any RPG) they have Mages and Shamans. The main difference (other than outlook and roleplaying of course, as mages tend to be scientific – and shamans. Spontaneous) is that Mages Conjure Elementals and Shamans conjure nature spirits. But BOTH have access to the Astral planes. Astral perception is more or less just ‘opening ones eyes’ and allows the magician to see the astral plane. He can read moods, auras, and see invisible things, etc. The danger is that it allows invisible things to see the magician too, and may be attracted to it and can, because he/she has partially opened him/herself up to the Astral plane, be attacked by things that otherwise would not be able to cause harm.. Astral perception would is also available to partial mages (magical adepts) – so may be bundled with lesser cantrips and psionics. Astral Projection is of course, leaving ones body in Astral form. Magical weapons also have an astral presence, so can be taken along for the ride. Movement is at the speed of thought, and a mage can almost instantly travel to a place they have been before, but will get lost and confused if they try to explore somewhere new. They can also take on a ghost like form and speak to people on the physical plane. I think that these powers should be included if possible – and modified accordingly. Mages should have the full set. Priests probably don’t astrally project, but can astrally perceive, as can some adepts and practitioners of cantrip magics. I think this captures the essence, if not the wording of my original (lost) post. As always, it is open for discussion, but the Adepts of Lhasa and Escia are needed as they fit into a later narrative and allow for sword saints, supernatural blademasters, etc. |
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Post by onekelvin on Aug 27, 2017 7:29:35 GMT
We need anti-magic stat! Wooden sticks cutting through steel bars! The armor does nothing! Everyone picked wizard as their main class and the warriors are all social outcasts! There are so many questions! Why would anyone ever wear useless armor? Can armor that negates the cutting enchantment be made of cloth? Wood? If shields can't stop sword blows then what takes the place of shields? It it hard to enchant shields? Why not armor then? If only weapons can be enhanced then why do weapons need to evolve at all? Is combat reduced to nothing but archers wearing steel rice-hats? Why is sad saboo sad? Are the gods crazy? They must be, why else would they leave us in a world where steel is laying about in heaps and a Coca-cola bottle can cut through the mightiest tree in the forest!? Whew. Sorry... magic frustrates me sometimes. But don't I have a point? Why would a world with magic pouring out of your ears look at all like 12th-14th-16th century Europe or Asia or Central America? How do we know they would even have swords and the art of killing each other with metal sticks would ever be invented they might use potions and robes and warfare would consist of pretty girls of twelve murdering with the power of interpretive dance!?  You say "But OneKelvin there's elves and there's steel", and I say NONSENSE it's all just a distraction: the steel is still useful you can still make it into cars and trains and toy wheelbarrows as long as your mana holds out, but in the grand scheme of things it seems much more effective to throw your chi at them directly and bypass the middleman especially since the middleman never invented the whetstone since steel can be sharped with the edges of mushrooms and really good handwriting.  It's the magic I tell ya, the magic! And that's just the problem because it is magic isn't it, and magic is fun, but there's a problem you see: you want to have the cake and the cake-knife both, but one has to cut the other and if the cake cuts the knife then knives made for cutting cake are going to look really weird. And that's just my point, that even though you want a setting that good for RPGs and character-making you also want a setting that's really good for swords, and magic is like water: you need enough of it if you're going to stay interesting, but too much will ruin the furniture. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you need to choose the focus because this isn't a vacuum and one thing affects the other, and if you want the focus to be swords then you can't make magic that puts sword-like qualities into thing like cutting ability and lightness and skill and so on because then what do you actually need to design a sword for? Just get a piece of wood and put runes of sword on it and bob's your uncle.  So in conclusion: Be skimpy with the magic it makes stuff get silly. |
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Aug 27, 2017 7:50:01 GMT
We need anti-magic stat! Wooden sticks cutting through steel bars! The armor does nothing! Everyone picked wizard as their main class and the warriors are all social outcasts! There are so many questions! Why would anyone ever wear useless armor? Can armor that negates the cutting enchantment be made of cloth? Wood? If shields can't stop sword blows then what takes the place of shields? It it hard to enchant shields? Why not armor then? If only weapons can be enhanced then why do weapons need to evolve at all? Is combat reduced to nothing but archers wearing steel rice-hats? Why is sad saboo sad? Are the gods crazy? They must be, why else would they leave us in a world where steel is laying about in heaps and a Coca-cola bottle can cut through the mightiest tree in the forest!? Whew. Sorry... magic frustrates me sometimes. But don't I have a point? Why would a world with magic pouring out of your ears look at all like 12th-14th-16th century Europe or Asia or Central America? How do we know they would even have swords and the art of killing each other with metal sticks would ever be invented they might use potions and robes and warfare would consist of pretty girls of twelve murdering with the power of interpretive dance!? You say "But OneKelvin there's elves and there's steel", and I say NONSENSE it's all just a distraction: the steel is still useful you can still make it into cars and trains and toy wheelbarrows as long as your mana holds out, but in the grand scheme of things it seems much more effective to throw your chi at them directly and bypass the middleman especially since the middleman never invented the whetstone since steel can be sharped with the edges of mushrooms and really good handwriting. It's the magic I tell ya, the magic! And that's just the problem because it is magic isn't it, and magic is fun, but there's a problem you see: you want to have the cake and the cake-knife both, but one has to cut the other and if the cake cuts the knife then knives made for cutting cake are going to look really weird. And that's just my point, that even though you want a setting that good for RPGs and character-making you also want a setting that's really good for swords, and magic is like water: you need enough of it if you're going to stay interesting, but too much will ruin the furniture. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you need to choose the focus because this isn't a vacuum and one thing affects the other, and if you want the focus to be swords then you can't make magic that puts sword-like qualities into thing like cutting ability and lightness and skill and so on because then what do you actually need to design a sword for? Just get a piece of wood and put runes of sword on it and bob's your uncle. So in conclusion: Be skimpy with the magic it makes stuff get silly. We could do what World of Warcraft and Dungeons and Dragons did (and perhaps Warframe to a limited extent) and introduce another system: Martial Arts! Basically "magic" but used by the warriors, swordsmen and melee combatants. And give them even footing because Martial Arts can be learned by anyone instead of just a talented few. So casters will always be outnumbered by swordsmen and melee combatants. You probably made that comment after reading Paul's comment on evolution of swords, where there are armor-rending Gladiuses (Gladii?) did you? I kinda dislike that idea as well. Anyway, yes I agree that magic needs to have more limits. Unfortunately I am also facing College so I can't contribute as much as I want to whenever I want to. Plus, there are no spell lists as of yet. Its just a framework. This basically means that any suggestions said by anyone on said limits are welcome and will be considered. |
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Post by onekelvin on Aug 27, 2017 9:31:39 GMT
Mmmeyss... I did type that after the galddi thingy...  You must excuse me It's late and there's a hurricane outside and I haven't slept so I'm not at my most lucid and I may sound more critical than I am. I'll tell you what I like. I love the origin of humans as a trickster god's prank. That's fairly original actually, and funny too!  The gods and dragons and chi all looks good, and the sword focuses too. Magic organization all looks fine to me, I just wish someone would put it down sensibly in Webster-form so that someone like me who isn't a 10th level wizard doesn't have to look up what a cantrip is every time they see it.  But don't make the armor useless man!! For the love of all the gods!! |
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Post by admin on Aug 27, 2017 14:10:07 GMT
Some excellent feedback guys, this is the kind of debate I was hoping for as finding the right balance for a fantasy setting of any type is a delicate balancing act.
Now to be fair, there are some checks and balances already in there. With regards to mages that can do things that would make an army decided to go a different route – they are super rare. One is Lich King. Another is the Deathless Witch. Both of these are pretty close to being demi-gods. Then there are the magi of Noktarikon. We have never said how many, but there are probably 3 of 4 that are really powerful, and the rest are more or less apprentices of varying levels. There a few independent Warlocks and Wizards (marked on the maps we did, so from memory there are 2 or 3 such locations) – and with regards to the Adepts, only 5 have achieved true mastery- that’s close to a rate of one every 1,000 years or thereabouts..
And that’s about it.. Folk magic to cure warts n stuff is rife. But let’s take your average Shaoshi warrior monk who has been training since 4 or 5 years old, in a magical world, that is now in his mid 20s. He could take out 3 armed warriors – if he was armed – and 1 if not. Above 3, he would be overwhelmed. I would think that would make him about as tough as a heroic warrior. Not stronger, about the same, but with a totally different outlook and ‘flavor’. Not too many of the monks get above this level, but there are some heros such as Akissar (sp?) from Escia who is an Adept with the Castir. He would be more dangerous than someone like Miyamoto Musashi on our world – beats everyone else, without breaking a sweat – with just a touch of light ‘matrix’ action thrown in there..
But he is world famous. So maybe there are 3 or 4 other people in the world at this moment who could either give him a run for his money, or possibly beat him.
As to armor being useless, remember, Coronatite is rare – they ran out of it for a few hundred years until it was discovered in the badlands. Magic armor works as normal, but is much harder to make – and a shield will ‘kind of’ work, in that if you do it right, the sword will go in and could well get stuck. So it is, pardon the pun, a double edged sword.. Shields would basically be hacked apart first, there would be a lot of splinters after a battle..
But I hear you, I will tone it down a bit. Maybe make it twice as likely to puncture armor as regular steel, and still inherently magical (+1).
SIDENOTE: Don’t forget, the Aelutian Gladius design was a competition winner, and will be a real sword in a few months, so we want it to be cool enough that the army will keep using it and modifying it over the centuries, otherwise it would have just been superseded.
THIS point I think was critical: magic is like water: you need enough of it if you're going to stay interesting, but too much will ruin the furniture.
VERY good point. So I will definitely take this on board and we will scale it back.
I probably do need to rewrite some things as it makes it sound like the Shaoshi temple is churning out superhuman warriors who can fly in the hundreds every year and they are churning out energy swords but actually, there have only been 5.. One for each 1,000 year hero. And they take a long time to make, and require the owner to put their essence into it.
But this is good, I need to fine tune things and better/further clarify some of the description.
As to martial arts, I don’t really know if it can replace the adepts entirely – and if it has a magic element, which kind of probably will have, and can be learned by anyone, then the balance factor kicks in again..
With the adepts, I am trying to allow an outlet for people who dig the whole ‘Cain wandering the desert’ thing, Crouching Dragon Hidden Tiger, and that kind of thing. But can tone them down somewhat.
With regards to balancing magic other than its rarity (99.999% of the population have zero talent – never have – never will. Of the others, about 1% can be mages – the rest, can do a few parlor tricks. Of the 1% of mages, maybe 5% will become ‘fight an army with a stick’ powerful (okay, a better example would be what Sauron does to the elves at the start of the LoTR movies. There is only one Sauron, and the Istari pretty much. We have a little more than that, and Sauron would kick the DeathKnights butt with his legs tied behind his back)..
The overall level of magic is higher than Middle Earth, but less concentrated.
But this is a good step in the right direction to identifying areas of concern to tweak that balance.
One more step is that channeling mana can hurt you. Spell casting should always be a bit dangerous. In RPG systems, I liked Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying. Every time you cast a spell, because you are dipping your toe into chaos more or less, there is a very small (about 4% or so) chance that something totally unexpected happens. Up to and including some really nasty and sudden ends. So magicians are always a little HESITANT to cast a spell when a mundane method will do. So if there was a 4% that every night when you made a magic bath for yourself, that it would instead suck you into the Abyss, or make your eyes turn pure black for the rest of your life, I think you would pay for a servant to do run you one..
So how about adding a random element? There was a major event at the Notarikon that destroyed it when something like this happened, so I assume that – while there are ways to minimize it – there should always be a risk to magic that holds it in check and gives us a nice lake instead of wet furniture. :-)
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Aug 27, 2017 17:20:21 GMT
One more step is that channeling mana can hurt you. Spell casting should always be a bit dangerous. In RPG systems, I liked Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying. Every time you cast a spell, because you are dipping your toe into chaos more or less, there is a very small (about 4% or so) chance that something totally unexpected happens. Up to and including some really nasty and sudden ends. So magicians are always a little HESITANT to cast a spell when a mundane method will do. So if there was a 4% that every night when you made a magic bath for yourself, that it would instead suck you into the Abyss, or make your eyes turn pure black for the rest of your life, I think you would pay for a servant to do run you one.. So how about adding a random element? There was a major event at the Notarikon that destroyed it when something like this happened, so I assume that – while there are ways to minimize it – there should always be a risk to magic that holds it in check and gives us a nice lake instead of wet furniture. :-) ------ As to armor being useless, remember, Coronatite is rare – they ran out of it for a few hundred years until it was discovered in the badlands. Magic armor works as normal, but is much harder to make – and a shield will ‘kind of’ work, in that if you do it right, the sword will go in and could well get stuck. So it is, pardon the pun, a double edged sword.. Shields would basically be hacked apart first, there would be a lot of splinters after a battle.. But I hear you, I will tone it down a bit. Maybe make it twice as likely to puncture armor as regular steel, and still inherently magical (+1). SIDENOTE: Don’t forget, the Aelutian Gladius design was a competition winner, and will be a real sword in a few months, so we want it to be cool enough that the army will keep using it and modifying it over the centuries, otherwise it would have just been superseded. First point. Well that's basically what Anima Mea and Anima Vestra implies: using Anima Mea has a chance to hurt you, especially if you use too much of it in one go without taking a break. Anima Vestra will hurt the environment instead, so using that would probably end up with having every plant life around you wither and die whilst living creatures may be able to bear the strain according to their metabolism and size. I’d say birds and small mammals up to the size of cats could easily die from an Anima Vestra absorption. So the question is: are you going to risk hurting yourself or the environment and living beings around you?? Many different schools of magic will have different views on these two usage of mana. Some would abhor Anima Vestra, remarking that it’s unethical, especially if used within proximity of sapient living beings. These people will emphasize the use of Anima Mea instead, as they think that risking oneself would be better than risking others. Some other schools will be more pragmatic. Since Anima Vestra is so useful, they would allow or even encourage its usage under certain circumstances. Second point: the Coronatite magical blades and armor. + sidenote I think that the problem is that you want the Gladius to stay relevant in an era where Longswords exist and other swords evolve. Or you want it to be really powerful in order to pad your empire, again. (Sorry if I sound rude). Now this is just a suggestion, but instead of making the weapon special, why not make its usage and function special instead? Plus, it gives a lot of credits to Imperial Tacticians and Strategists (or even the Paragon himself if he developed those tactics). I know that the Empire is based of the Roman Empire and I'll assume they use the same infantry tactics the Romans did.  So, they use formations in warfare. Which is considered boring in fiction. After all, that isn’t what an audience wants. An audience usually wants glistening-pecs warfare where everything is personal and motivated by anger/revenge/emotions/chosen by gods. (Note: they could even have formations specifically designed to take down Monstrous Creatures.) But that’s not how the Empire works. The reason the armies of the Empire tended to win against less organized folk (say, the Goblins, Orks and Thanes) is not because each and every one of their soldiers was more ferocious in single combat. It's because their professional troops stayed in those boring, organized formations and specifically avoided just charging into battle. Their well-armored and disciplined troops formed up into ranks and pushed their way down the field, one step at a time.  That tightly protected formation is essentially a tank, which would allow armies to amble around the battlefield spear-stabbing (sword-stabbing) everyone, resisting their natural urge for badass, glistening-pecs warfare. In real life, most every successful pre-firearm warrior culture organized special formations like that to whip out against their less strategically minded opponents. Even Vikings, the poster boys of undisciplined berserker rage, often fought in basic shield-wall formations. As for the whole "break from formation to engage in slow-mo melee combat" thing, it just didn't happen if the warriors knew what they were doing. The thing about fighting shoulder to shoulder in close formation and close enough to the enemy to smell their (lack of) deodorant is that you don't have much room to dance around swinging a sword. As such, especially during the classical era of Greece and Rome, battles between hoplites or legions mostly consisted of which side was better at holding their line and pushing the other side back. This is where the Imperial Shield + Gladius combo really shines. Their shorter length would make them suited at holding the line and stabbing their opponents that are piled up in front of their formation. The shield would defend the soldier's body from the enemy's assault. Plate Armor is still relevant. Empire is still awesome. Unfortunately, it means that every imperial battle without Independent Characters are tedious and boring, both to watch and participate in. You can see the irony here; the method depends on the other side wanting the same thing movie and general fiction audiences want now -- acrobatic, one-on-one combat to prove who the better man is. The armies who succumbed to that temptation got their asses kicked. (Note that my suggestion does not apply to duels and formal challenges that happen in the middle of combat. It does apply to Imperial Warfare Tactica at large.) Note: I'm not familiar with Medieval Warfare tactics (which I assume is the time setting of Elatreus), but I know enough not to trust Hollywood movies to portray them historically accurate. So I won't discuss them in detail. Perhaps OneKelvin can elaborate. Link to more Roman Empire Tactics: romanmilitary.net/strategy/legform/ |
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Post by celegon on Aug 27, 2017 18:41:16 GMT
i agree about the empire fighting in formations, with that, the gladius fits perfectly in the world
I dont think we have to worry too much about explaining all the different sword styles existing simultaneously as long as we can define their reason for using that type of sword,or create a reason.
I feel like im unable to contribute much to the magic discussion but i did have one idea about mages carrying vials of a magic liquid that when uncorked could form a blade , the vial would act like a handle (think of a lightsaber)
simple mageblades would just be leather or cord wrapped glass vials, but more ornate ones could be made from crystal and precious metals.perhaps the vials have to be made of the "mageglass"? or maybe the liquid could be loaded into our fantasy firearms
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Post by onekelvin on Aug 27, 2017 21:51:26 GMT
Two things: Anima Vestra - Can you choose what you sick the life from to power it? If you can it sounds like perfect combat magic. Suck the life from an enemy soldier, use it to kill more enemy soldiers: like magical vamprism.  Second the Gladius and relevance. Swords are sidearms. Fact. In ye-olden-days the primary weapon of the legions was technically the shield. It was what the tactics were based around. With plate armor, you no longer need the shield, and the primary weapon can take up two hands. For the Empire my favored setup is full plate and a halberd.  Yet you still need a sword for close quarters. A short sword or dagger specifically, for getting into the gaps in armor or through the visors of helmets. Knights used swords and rondel daggers for this very reason. In I see the old Empire using Roman tactics, and the modern Empire using bloc tactics with halberd blocks. When they close in however they may drop the halberd and use the gladuis and a mailed fist. The gladius, being a shorter stabbing sword, is not a bad option at all for the rough, dirty, close-in wrestling that occurs with close in fighting.   Not only that, but the gladius will very probably be the primary weapon for dueling in the Empire. There is simply no better option. The history, heritage, and honor behind the weapon both as a link to past glories and as the sidearm of the modem soldier would cement it in the minds of the populace as the sidearm of a gentleman. Even with the availability of new firearms the gladius would have a significant advantage in the areas of tradition and honor.  It probably would also be the weapon most commonly worn by people in day to day life. You don't know when you'll need to be armed, and a gladius is a very convenient weapon to fit into your day-to-day life. Have you ever gone to the pub with a halberd? What about the bathroom? So. Yes the gladius will be relevant and iconic even if it's not the primary armament or the only weapon the Empire uses. Because of its omnipresence in day-to-day life the gladius will be the weapon one thinks of when one thinks of the Empire, even if soldiers use halberds in warfare. |
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Post by admin on Aug 29, 2017 6:01:31 GMT
Excellent points raised - and yes, the early empire would have used roman tactics and discipline to their advantage. They would have had issues with the mounted Escians, who would have messed up their tactics much like the Goths did to this historical Romans. So yes, they would have evolved different weapons such as halberds and missile weapons, and possibly magical artifacts with ranged capabilities, though the difficulty and time required to make them would mean they would only be capable to be used every now and again for strategic purposes). I do really like the idea that the Gladius has gone through several models and types to the current one, which is used for dueling and has cultural value. Anyway, yeah - I can see that there are risks to oneself using the Anima Mea/Anima Vesta, but what about other spells and especially OVER-TIER spells. We have written in to the story a summoning that went wrong and destroyed Notarikon (I don't know if you agree, but I suspect they may have been experimenting to summon their own Golgoloth.. But lost control). The thing is that running and channeling raw mana through ones body should be inherently dangerous. Push too far and it will backlash in some way, maybe causing bloodshot eyes and nosebleed if it is slightly above tolerance, to passing out or suffering a fatal stroke if it is considerably higher than an individuals threshold (this could be mitigated to some degree with expensive and rare material components that crumble and take the brunt of a mana surge). But what about the idea of each time a spell is cast, there is ALWAYS a small chance it will have an unexpected effect. The more experienced you get, the less it should be - but it should always be there. How badly it goes wrong would also be related to the power of the spell. For example, a miscast cantrip will probably have fairly minor side effects if it goes wrong. So instead of curing warts, maybe it makes them break out twice as bad. At high levels and over-tier spells, getting warts is not appropriate, the risk should be potentially life threatening or transformative in a bad way. If we have ALL of these elements in place, magic will indeed still be incredibly powerful, but have enough internal checks and balances that magicians don't go around throwing spells like Tim the Enchancter.. "He is a busy man"As to the Empire being overpowered, well - there is no doubt they are the dominant Geo-political force, but they are far from omnipotent. The Escians are fewer in number, but fight smart and are actually beating the Empire back right now. They also have been unable to invade the troublesome Northmen, who are more of a continuous nuisance than an threat to their existence like the Escians. And if the Land of the Dead went to war against then, especially right now, they would fall (he has a MASSIVE army of undead that has accumulated over the centuries, but never uses it - and it seems to be there for defensive and deterrent purposes only). They also have severe issues with the current Imperial Family. I mean, look at them..  They have gotten soft.. The 15th Paragon is a bit on the senile side (developing plot twist is that the Flame of the Host disappeared recently, and they are trying to keep it quiet to avoid a panic). And the 16 year old heir apparent is a nut-case who privately wants to change the way they fight the Escians (since they have been fighting for centuries, and both are 'good' civilizations, like the ancient Samurai they have probably developed protocols to try and minimize all out total war - so there may be individual duels on the battlefield, rules of engagement, and something like a Geneva convention on the treatment of prisoners that both sides adhere to, so it is easy to surrender if a battle is going the wrong way and exchange prisoners.) He would much rather go total war on them and annex their lands and privately believes that Tuath De and Silverwater should be absorbed by the Empire.. Plus he wants the Deathless Witches dead on a plate (he thinks SHE stole the Flame, and is fearful of her power. After all, if you are talking about overpowered - as is stands Temple Nimbus could destroy the capital and there is nothing do about it.. Indeed, she could probably trash the whole Empire if she wanted to, and there may be no one that is powerful to stop her.. (The Lich King might be able to, but he is typically passive with regards to world events and has no personal interest in her one way or the other) But yeah, even if she was stopped, the damage she would do would allow the Escians and the Northmen to overrun the Empire - so it is much less powerful than this one person and her flying fortress of total destruction. Not that I am saying SHE should be toned down, but that she is actually more powerful than 35 million people..) Will be interesting to see what happens with that story arc actually.. I don't think the Deathless Witch is genocidal maniac and would kill millions of people, but she is provably upset about the assassination attempt and may wish to give the heir apparent the spanking of his life.. Lol (he needs it, only his mother and to some degree, his sisters, keep him in check.. His father thinks he can do no wrong, but is getting so vague recently that his son is extremely close to being coronated.. :-( |
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Aug 29, 2017 12:08:13 GMT
Anyway, yeah - I can see that there are risks to oneself using the Anima Mea/Anima Vesta, but what about other spells and especially OVER-TIER spells. We have written in to the story a summoning that went wrong and destroyed Notarikon (I don't know if you agree, but I suspect they may have been experimenting to summon their own Golgoloth.. But lost control). The thing is that running and channeling raw mana through ones body should be inherently dangerous. Push too far and it will backlash in some way, maybe causing bloodshot eyes and nosebleed if it is slightly above tolerance, to passing out or suffering a fatal stroke if it is considerably higher than an individuals threshold (this could be mitigated to some degree with expensive and rare material components that crumble and take the brunt of a mana surge). But what about the idea of each time a spell is cast, there is ALWAYS a small chance it will have an unexpected effect. The more experienced you get, the less it should be - but it should always be there. How badly it goes wrong would also be related to the power of the spell. For example, a miscast cantrip will probably have fairly minor side effects if it goes wrong. So instead of curing warts, maybe it makes them break out twice as bad. At high levels and over-tier spells, getting warts is not appropriate, the risk should be potentially life threatening or transformative in a bad way. If we have ALL of these elements in place, magic will indeed still be incredibly powerful, but have enough internal checks and balances that magicians don't go around throwing spells like Tim the Enchancter.. ----------------------- After all, if you are talking about overpowered - as is stands Temple Nimbus could destroy the capital and there is nothing do about it.. Indeed, she could probably trash the whole Empire if she wanted to, and there may be no one that is powerful to stop her.. (The Lich King might be able to, but he is typically passive with regards to world events and has no personal interest in her one way or the other) But yeah, even if she was stopped, the damage she would do would allow the Escians and the Northmen to overrun the Empire - so it is much less powerful than this one person and her flying fortress of total destruction. Not that I am saying SHE should be toned down, but that she is actually more powerful than 35 million people..) Will be interesting to see what happens with that story arc actually.. I don't think the Deathless Witch is genocidal maniac and would kill millions of people, but she is provably upset about the assassination attempt and may wish to give the heir apparent the spanking of his life.. Lol (he needs it, only his mother and to some degree, his sisters, keep him in check.. His father thinks he can do no wrong, but is getting so vague recently that his son is extremely close to being coronated.. :-(
Anima Mea/Anima Vestra isn't actually a school or subschool or category of magic. It is the way a caster draws mana/energy. You WILL use either one every time you cast a spell. Also applies to advanced magic schools such as Biomancy or Over-Tier. A simple 'flowchart' of the casting process would look like this: Choose spell--->Choose where you draw mana (yourself/Anima Mea or environment/Anima Vestra)----> Casting time---->magical effect takes place. (also implies that casting spells do not happen immediately. There is a process.) the first step, Choosing Spells, actually has two sub-steps that can be used, though one of which is pretty much mandatory for all casters, which is Priming Spells. These 'primed' spells can be used without casting time/certain other penalties at a moment's notice, but still uses mana/energy. The other sub-step is casting spells that are not primed, albeit with penalties such as increased casting time or costing more mana or even requiring material costs. Which also makes it clear that any caster that does not prime their spells are either misguided or ignorant. Each Primed or 'Unprimed' spell will always have some danger to its caster, especially if they are interrupted during the casting time. The more difficult the spell, the more danger there is. Maybe the caster could spontaneously combust if they failed the casting of a [Fireball Swarm] spell. Answering OneKelvin's question: Can you choose what you sick the life from to power it? If you can it sounds like perfect combat magic. Suck the life from an enemy soldier, use it to kill more enemy soldiers: like magical vampirism.
Yes you can, but only if you're an accomplished Archmage/Master Sorcerer. If everybody can do so, then there's no reason for anyone to keep using Anima Mea. Casters would just siphon energy from their foes, use it against them, rinse and repeat. They would effectively have an unlimited amount of energy to absorb from, so I'd limit the amount of people who can selectively absorb energy. In the beginning of the story, the only people who can do this are Non-Protagonist/POV-Characters such as the Lich King, the Deathless Witch, and some members of the Archmage Council of Notarikon (like Paul mentioned, they are capable of turning aside entire armies). Any protagonists should only be able to selectively absorb energy after a great deal of studying and effort. The reason why Anima Vestra is used despite most casters being incapable of selectively absorbing energy is because they would be able to use spells that would otherwise completely drain their mana reserve (leaving them vulnerable) or even spells they shouldn't be able to cast using Anima Mea (not trained enough to cast them). It's useful but costly. Second point, regarding Temple Nimbus and the Deathless Witch
Hmm, a valid reason why they are so powerful is because they're basically the antagonists of the Twelfth Aeon arc, starting from 1030 IA. They are capable of tearing apart any single nation in Elatreus with the exception of the Land of the Dead assuming they are careful and do not overextend. Despite its power, however, Temple Nimbus is never meant to be completely unstoppable. In fact, I'm gonna add one arbitrary weaknesses that you can give feedback to. And perhaps more once I come up with them .
Antigravity Inhibitor Pylon
OneKelvin's suggestion in the original timeline which is now retconned. Since the Empire basically controls the Sorcerer City of Notarikon, I'd guess they'll come up with some way to keep the capital and other important locations safe from the flying death fortress. Or these countermeasures are introduced after the Silent Alliance raid, where members of the raid team would bring back intel about Temple Nimbus and enables the Archmages of Notarikon to develop countermeasures. Maybe some members of the Silent Alliance raid team were wizards, which again causes the Deathless Witch to have a chronic fear of wizards, basically banning them from ever stepping foot on Temple Nimbus and personally kills them if they do. The Antigrav Inhibitor Pylons disrupts Temple Nimbus' ability to get close to its target. Perhaps it slowly pulls the fortress to the ground or somehow makes it fall apart in midair. Anyway, it cripples the Temple's ability to drop Sentinels right on top of its targets and overwhelming them under Blitzkrieg tactics. I’d suggest these pylons to have an effective radius wide enough so that three to six of them would cover the Capital City of Paragonia. A single pylon would probably be enough to protect a small city or a sizeable fortress. These pylons would make things difficult for the Witch (After all, the Sentinels are bad at attrition warfare and can’t sustain losses), and cause her to bide her time and attack settlements one at a time lest risk her base be destroyed thus giving her motivation to seek out weapons, artifacts, and an advantage over her foe. It also gives risk to the story, and risk makes conflict, and conflict drives plot. She has to work in order to destroy/sabotage these pylons either personally or using help from people loyal to her (I’d assume the secret organization she founded, the Trisagion, would still be present in the continuity. Maybe they were the former Doomsday Cult (Paul mentioned in the new timeline) reformed by her…?). Of course, once the pylons are destroyed then Temple Nimbus would be free to drop Sentinels and Elemental Boulders/Firefall/Waterfall/Icefall on top of its target. A weakness of these pylons is that they are immobile once activated, so they have to be placed in strategic locations in the city/fortress to cover an optimal amount of area. These locations would be extremely heavily guarded, and once one is destroyed, guards would lock down the other Pylons. Another weakness of these pylons is that they are expensive to produce, and there simply isn't enough resources to make enough Pylons to isolate Temple Nimbus into a single area, which is why they are so well protected. |
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admin
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Post by admin on Aug 31, 2017 7:58:44 GMT
I actually realized this after I posted - 'doh!
Really like the idea of the Pylons. I sent you an email as we need to work out the timeline of the Deathless Witch from Statis to the present day which may change how and when this happens, but the idea is solid. Just not sure if they will have them completed in time..
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ashcrafter
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Post by ashcrafter on Sept 1, 2017 2:13:39 GMT
Comment on alchemy being OP
Maybe consider a temporal element
i.e., like medieval alchemy, it's not instantaneous
e.g. it might take month or years to make golems
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Sept 1, 2017 3:36:02 GMT
ashcrafterIts not Alchemy. Its Transmutation. We don't need any characters in the story transmuting common pebbles into gold. It's all fun and games in a DnD campaign, but if everyone transforms rocks into gold then how does the economy work??
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Post by bladerunner2534 on Sept 1, 2017 16:27:22 GMT
This is a very good point. As I'm very new to this whole project, I'm not sure as to whether magic is common and everyone could use it, or it's rare and hard to master. Making magic difficult to use would be one way to "nerf" its power--as a hundred warriors can overwhelm a single wizard who may very well overestimate his or her abilities due to arrogance. Maybe some form of martial arts discipline that focuses on "arcane hardening"--constantly exposing the body to increasing blasts of magic in order to build up resistances to it, to the point where a true master is not harmed in any way by magical spells. Potential drawback--in order to learn this ability, the student must first renounce all forms of magic--beneficial or harmful--and can no longer cast spells or be affected by positive benefits of magic. In short, an over-protection from magic. |
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ashcrafter
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Post by ashcrafter on Sept 1, 2017 22:08:12 GMT
Ah, ok. I misunderstood.
though perhaps there could be (metallurgical) alchemy as a magical discipline -- infusing weapons with spells as they're forged ... changing the properties of metals (all in a "lab" setting though)
perhaps it would be easier than spell-casting but require ingredients ... just an idea
Anti-magic stat: the wizard can still levitate something and drop it on your head; since its practitioners would still be vulnerable to environmental magic, is a drawback rally necessary?
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Post by onekelvin on Sept 2, 2017 12:15:48 GMT
I just put my design for an alchemist's guild blade and an actual alchemist in the sword evolution timeline thread. It's written with context for the equipment there, but basically I suggested that alchemy is more or less a mixture of potion-making and enchantment with a heavy focus on the creation of magically-enhanced items rather than actual spellcraft or performable magic. Perhaps it's an approach to magic rather than an actual separate field. An alchemist for example might learn to engrave runes, but how he would use those runes would be more experimental and materialistic than how a conventional wizard or enchanter might use them. A wizard might cast runes to see the future, and an enchant might carve them to provide an element of durability or fire in a ring or sword. An alchemist however would probably engrave runes of durability into a clockwork mechanism so the gears never strip, or a rune of fire into a glass bottle so that the contents will ignite when thrown. He's more interested in chemistry and technology than magic, and simply uses magic to help his craft along. A good wizard might be able to use magic to make a caterpillar as large as a horse so he can scale a wall; a good alchemist might use magic to make a microbe the size of a potato so he can study disease without a good microscope. And if if a few of those potato-sized microbes get lost down the drain and start dividing in the sewers, no big deal.  Edit: Also magic steroids. One day an alchemist is trying out concoctions to make pigs grow faster so he can eat pork twice a week without paying for it at the market, the next day he's tested the concoction on his pigs, the dog*, and is now using it himself to get a He-Man body without working out. (Sure his skin has gone grey and he has an irrepressible urge to lift everything eh sees, but that's progress for ya!) *(Yes the dog is ripped too.)  Aaaand now I'm going to have to go and add "Alchemically Altered Guard Dog" to the bestiary. |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 2, 2017 13:11:54 GMT
Not only a guard dog, think of a unit of armored battle dogs with alchemically hardened fangs, perhaps under magical control of a beastmaster.
500 dogunculi attacking a shield wall, watch your calfs!
The Romans had the Molossers for this task.
But they might also be usefull against light cavalry, to dismount them.
The counterweapon would be alchemically enhanced fleas as big as a baskedball.
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admin
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Post by admin on Sept 3, 2017 6:27:59 GMT
Hmm, an interesting new direction - one thing that I felt was missing from the magic discussion was magic sword making (after all, we are a sword focused community!) and I think that the alchemist may be a broad category into which a maker of magic swords would fit into.. In this way, a maker of magical blades (that need an enchantment) would not know combat spells, etc but is dedicated to his craft and must gather the required (rare) material components, prepare a 'scared space' and forge uninterrupted for a set period of time (likely 1-3 months) and if they are lucky, the spell takes and the weapon becomes magical. Such an individual would be REALLY good at making swords (mundane skillset, so he/she can make fine quality blades without any magic) and the rest of their focus is on the spells that are bound to the sword. They would not be able to cast defensive or offensive spells, but would more likely than not, also be pretty handy with a blade. Do you think they are technically 'alchemists' as defined here, or an additional subset? I like the idea of 'arcane hardening' for the Adepts. Drawing on the 'Shadowrun' universe for inspiration, their adepts were a counter to magicians, and a magicians worst nightmare. They could, for example, easily tear apart elementals or nature spirits that would wipe out a heavily armed corporate security detail, and could (if they have astral perception) see and attack a mage in astral space.. It is not too far a step to suggest that an adept that is a kind of 'mage assassin' would have these kind of abilities, plus magic resistance - and the only thing saving a magician is their ability to teleport or levitate/fly away.. So in summary, it looks like we have the following concepts formed. Mages/Shamans/Priests - all use the same basic system, but are concentrated to various disciples. So priests use divine magic, Mages Arcane Magic, etc. I would think priests are the most common full magic users in our world, then Shamans and finally mages, that are exceedingly rare. Then we have the Adepts, who do not cast spells but use magic and mana to enhance their physical abilities beyond what is normally humanly possible and is based on martial arts and warrior monk tropes. Alchemists use runes and other methods to infuse magic into objects - and can be general or specialized (specialized would be a sword maker, another might be an armorer, etc). Finally, you would have individuals that are basically 'dabblers' in the arcane arts. They can never become a full mage, but have a few 'tricks' up their sleeve. The 'Alchemical steroids' idea actually overlaps with something I have been preparing regarding events around 800 years ago with the Northmen. To make a long story short, there was a 3rd DeathKnight that appeared in the Northmen lands and was stopped by a Valkyrie Martyr loyal to the old ways and the old gods, not the demons that the Norsemen were increasingly turning to. But before she could strike him down, the Northman DeathKnight used the brand of the fallen to increase the aggressiveness and the musculature of the Berserker warriors.. However, I think that - like with steroids in the real world - there should be some nasty side effects of this magic. Maybe increased aggression and 'instability' with the need for regular 'top ups' or the possibility of uncontrolled expansion, small things at first, but getting increasingly dangerous and unstable to the point that the muscles will start to pop out of the skin and - well, sweet taste but some monsterism..  It certainly had that effect on the Northmen.. |
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Post by onekelvin on Sept 3, 2017 10:27:45 GMT
"I did reply on this in the magic section, and really like the idea you have come up with here. As stated in the magic thread - I think that some Alchemists would be specialized - so the simple swords and armor you describe makes sense for a 'generalist' alchemist, effectively a 'medieval mad scientist' of a sort. But that you would also have alchemists who have mundane skills such as sword making, fletching, making armor, etc. Naturally, alchemists in general would be super rare, so the number of living sword smiths who are alchemists could be counted on one hand. While magic permeates everything in our fantasy world, actually being able to direct it and bend it to ones will is an exceeding rare and difficult to master talent. For a start, most people don't have the right genetics/natural talent, and of those that do, many won't ever know unless they are discovered by the wandering magi of Notarikon, or instinctively cast a spell in a life or death situation (and have no idea how they did it).. Then it takes YEARS of training and dedication, so that weeds out a lot of people too.. In short, magic is everywhere, but magicians, rare as hens teeth.." I think I miswrote then, since I was under the impression that direct magic-users were significantly more common. My mental image of an alchemist differed from my mental image of an enchanter, ie the type of mage would be involved in the creation of magic swords and swordsmithing. I pictured an alchemist more as a scientist in a magical world; their focus is the physical, and magic is just an afterthought. They might not have any magic powers themselves, but they could use magic as they found it. Alchemists would be responsible for the creation of guns, and clockwork devices, poisons, medicines and so on. There exist magical metals, plants, and animals in this world, and it doesn't take a mage to breed unicorns or to mix dragon blood with frog tears. So in that sense alchemists make "magical" items, but they aren't wizards. The only reason I included runes was because I was under the impression that it was more common; that anyone could take a book of runes and copy the marks with a chisel. The enchanter would be they type of mage involved with swordmaking. Some might be swordsmiths themselves, but figure most would be working alongside a master smith for the creation of such items. In order to become an enchanter first you have to have the "Gift" whatever that is. You need to be able to channel magic. Similar to an adept or a wizard you would need to learn the mental discipline involved in directing magic, but unlike those two your focus would be not on creating magical manifestations like fireballs or fields (wizard) or on strengthening yourself and being one with magic (adept) but instead on channeling the magic into solid matter in such a way that it is bound to it. It would take many years of practice, and trial-and-error. There would be things to learn: how to expend your own anima to direct the magic, how to layer it into an object, the rate at which different materials can receive magic without being distorted, what forces need to go in what order to make the item do what you want it to, and how to lock the magic in permanently. Let's use a frost enchantment as an example. Without knowing how to direct anima you wouldn't be able to put magic into the sword. Without knowing how to layer the magic into an object your enchantment could end up uneven with patchy areas of cold along the blade and even in the hilt. Without knowing at what rate steel and wood and leather can receive enchantment you could shatter the blade or take so long that the magic wears off before you can seal it in. Without knowing the order of forces you could end up with an unusable sword that is entirely cold including the grip. Without knowing how to lock the magic in the enchantment will evaporate quickly like the magic in the sword of an adept. Once a pupil masters the basics they are then taught about the places, times of year, and secret methods used by that particular order to achieve the best enchantments, and they are put in touch with the guild of smiths that order works with (unless they are a smith themselves, but this is rare). They then must learn to support themselves as they travel and learn to direct the people and resources to the proper times and places that they need to be for enchanting: basically social skills. If ice enchantments are made strongest in the dead of winter in the cold of the wilds, then an enchanter has to be able to motivate a smith, a furnace, and a load of steel into the icy cold wilds so that he can make a bunch of swords. So if you can pass all of those trial, and if you are successful enough, and if you have a person who can forge the sword to very specific standards on-demand at the right time in the right place; then yes you can be an enchanter. This is why large nations have better access to magical weapons - they are able to provide the schooling, materials, and manpower required better than say a small village out in the middle of nowhere. To be an alchemist, you need to have an inquisitive mind, a good memory, and a lot of spare time. That's it. Now to be a successful alchemist you'll probably need a few other things like, money, the ability to read, enough social understanding to be able to join a guild or talk your way out of the problems you might cause, and good reflexes to escape said problems; but these are only necessary if you want to survive a long career of alchemy. Technically, the crazy village inventor that tried to create a perpetual motion windmill, or lit his barn on fire experimenting on cooking with salamander fire, could be considered an alchemist.  Just as technically, a thief that makes his own smoke grenades, or wind-up distractions, or knows how to bind water to arrowheads with pages of a magic book he stole, could be considered an alchemist.  And finally yes, a full-blown mage that uses magic and technology together in order to defy the laws of nature, alter life itself, and bind spirits to clockwork devices could be considered an alchemist as well.  They're all alchemists because they use chemistry and technology in a magical world, not because they are gifted magic users. I figure the guild would mostly be composed of non-magical inventors and chemists with a very few mages mixed in. The mages would be in high demand and flooded with requests for magical parts, enchantments and so on, but most alchemy requires no innate magical ability. Just very careful measurements, rare ingredients, and precise procedure. This is why alchemists are secretive and wary of showing their research to outsiders; if you steal an alchemist's journal then you can probably do everything he did. I expect alchemists to have much larger libraries than the mage collages with books on every topic from naturalism, to chemistry, to clock-making and gun-smithing, and the applications of alchemy to be more common than those of enchanting. An enchanter might be able to make a bathtub that is always warm, but with limited time, resources, and actual mages, they probably will spend most of their time making weapons, armor, or working on government projects. An alchemist however might discover that a certain type of bee's wax, mixed with natural oil and a type of salt burns hot and for a very long time; and if he can find funding, and a means of production, and can get everything together without a thief or another alchemist killing him for the secret, then he might go into production and few years later you may be able to buy an alchemical heater in the general store from "InsertNameHere's home helpers" brand.  So yeah, that's what I thought we were talking about with alchemists and enchanters. |
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Post by onekelvin on Sept 3, 2017 10:55:02 GMT
So yeah, different groups of people can make different things, and enchanters will typically work with other people in order to create magical items of one type or another.
Enchanted Sword - Swordsmith + Enchanter. (You need a full swordsmith too, or else you need the blade smith, hilt fitter, and edge grinder to all be there as well.)
Enchanted Ring - Jeweler + Enchanter
Magic Scroll - Enchanter
Fireball - Wizard
Rain of Ice - Wizard
Thousand Fists - Adept
Harden Muscles - Adept
Gunpowder - Alchemist
Gun - Gunsmith
Magic Gun - Gunsmith + Enchanter
Low Fat Hot Cross Buns - Alchemist + Baker
Lead Sweetened Hot Cross Buns - Alchemist + Baker
Magic Hot Cross Bun - Enchanter + Baker
Rain of Hot Cross Buns - Wizard + Baker
Five Bun Flaming Cross Technique - Adept + Baker
Cookoo Clock - Alchemist/Atrificer
Poison Potion - Alchemist
Magic Potion - Alchemist + Enchanter
Animated Golem - Enchanter + Stonecarver/Potter
Animated Armor - Enchanter + Armorsmith
Clockwork Armor - Enchanter + Armorsmith + Alchemist
Clockwork Golem - Enchanter + Artificer + Alchemist
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Things have changed!