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Post by legacyofthesword on Jun 8, 2017 1:32:53 GMT
At least, I think this first guy is a samurai... he's only got one katana... and a tanto... and a saber... and a musket....  This second guy looks like he could be a samurai. But this looks post Meiji Restoration, so "samurai" might have been an outdated term at this point....  |
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Post by vermithrax on Jun 8, 2017 1:42:44 GMT
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jun 8, 2017 1:49:55 GMT
No way. That's so fantastic my mind is rejecting it as a fake. But it seems to be legit.... You think you've seen everything, and then something like this pops up....  |
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Post by stopped1 on Jun 8, 2017 1:51:14 GMT
I can't see first pic properly but second pic guy had top knot, so thats like before the sword/hair ban or he could be a satsuma rebel?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 8, 2017 2:18:11 GMT
At least, I think this first guy is a samurai... he's only got one katana... and a tanto... and a saber... and a musket.... Looks like an end-of-Edo soldier (of the Shogunate's army), as they were modernising. A drawing of one, from 1867:  Doesn't appear to be a samurai. Once upon a time, tachi and tanto were typical samurai wear, but the Tokugawa Shogunate required the daisho to be worn (and I don't think a tanto counted as the shoto). The requirement for samurai to wear the daisho was only abolished in 1871, and the wearing of the daisho only banned in 1876. End-of-Edo samurai in Western clothing with daisho:  |
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Jun 8, 2017 2:50:18 GMT
Wow, thats an amazing article. Suddenly, I feel just a tiny tiny pinch less weeb-ish knowing my partial ancestors were also a fan of the sword. |
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Post by vermithrax on Jun 9, 2017 2:02:24 GMT
No way. That's so fantastic my mind is rejecting it as a fake. But it seems to be legit.... You think you've seen everything, and then something like this pops up.... It's real. Confirmed by many searches. Amazing really. |
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jun 9, 2017 4:54:35 GMT
No way. That's so fantastic my mind is rejecting it as a fake. But it seems to be legit.... You think you've seen everything, and then something like this pops up.... It's real. Confirmed by many searches. Amazing really. It's not amazing... it's mind-blowing. I've been studying Native American culture and history since I was a kid. I memorized the different tribes, drew pictures, bought books... read anything I could get my hands on... the only thing I may have been as into is ancient Japanese culture. And now there's irrefutable evidence that the two actually met? Holy crap. Vermithrax, I owe you. |
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Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,658 
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jun 9, 2017 11:12:10 GMT
A picture out of context is just that. There is proof that one man had a photograph holding what appears to be a Japanese sword. Let's not overstate things.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jun 9, 2017 20:54:10 GMT
A picture out of context is just that. There is proof that one man had a photograph holding what appears to be a Japanese sword. Let's not overstate things. It's a picture, which very obviously shows an actual Native American holding what is definitely a katana. We can argue about whether the photo was staged, or is a fake, or so on, but the fact of a Native American holding a katana is inarguable. And totally cool. And still blows my mind no matter what. |
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 9, 2017 21:25:15 GMT
Well it's from the late 19th century, after there were trains and of course photographers. People had access to a global trading network. The rice crop in South America could make or break farmers in Oregon. And of course there were many Japanese immigrants to the western US. It's not really surprising that they were trading goods from their own country. And shiny sharp things have long been favorite trade items. They're easy to store, command a good price and don't spoil in the hold.
You could have a Basque shepherd admiring the katana owned by a native as a German baker looked on. It was a wild country. Still is.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jun 10, 2017 1:06:36 GMT
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AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,279
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 10, 2017 1:10:28 GMT
Hohoho-hoooooo - deeweedeewedeeweedeewee ding dang dow...
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Post by vermithrax on Jun 10, 2017 1:38:05 GMT
Whether we can totally verify is good debate. But.... (always a but) I think the classic Japanese would find so much in common with the Native Americans (love of nature, balance, beauty in what one does) that it's not wild to think before the internet era, exchanges and interactions happened. |
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worldantiques
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https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques
Posts: 81
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Post by worldantiques on Jun 23, 2017 5:25:50 GMT
Doesn't appear to be a samurai. Once upon a time, tachi and tanto were typical samurai wear, but the Tokugawa Shogunate required the daisho to be worn (and I don't think a tanto counted as the shoto). The requirement for samurai to wear the daisho was only abolished in 1871, and the wearing of the daisho only banned in 1876. A long and short sword, that is a "daisho", they did not have to be a matched set and yes, a katana and tanto would have been considered to be a daisho. |
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worldantiques
Member
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques
Posts: 81
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Post by worldantiques on Jun 23, 2017 5:26:09 GMT
Doesn't appear to be a samurai. Once upon a time, tachi and tanto were typical samurai wear, but the Tokugawa Shogunate required the daisho to be worn (and I don't think a tanto counted as the shoto). The requirement for samurai to wear the daisho was only abolished in 1871, and the wearing of the daisho only banned in 1876. A long and short sword, that is a "daisho", they did not have to be a matched set and yes, a katana and tanto would have been considered to be a daisho. |
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worldantiques
Member
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques
Posts: 81
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Post by worldantiques on Jun 23, 2017 5:48:26 GMT
At least, I think this first guy is a samurai... he's only got one katana... and a tanto... and a saber... and a musket.... This second guy looks like he could be a samurai. But this looks post Meiji Restoration, so "samurai" might have been an outdated term at this point.... Boshin war era samurai from certain domains often wore various articles of western clothing, they could have western guns and shoulder mounted swords. This was a time when many samurai domains were trying to modernize and catch up with the west. There were still samurai rebellions up to around 1877 when the new government gained complete control over Japan for the most part and the de-samuraization of Japan became a reality.  Here is a link to my Pinterest page, there is a board with over 1200 images of samurai, from the Edo period to the Meiji period. www.pinterest.com/worldantiques |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 23, 2017 8:27:42 GMT
Doesn't appear to be a samurai. Once upon a time, tachi and tanto were typical samurai wear, but the Tokugawa Shogunate required the daisho to be worn (and I don't think a tanto counted as the shoto). The requirement for samurai to wear the daisho was only abolished in 1871, and the wearing of the daisho only banned in 1876. A long and short sword, that is a "daisho", they did not have to be a matched set and yes, a katana and tanto would have been considered to be a daisho. In general, katana and tanto = daisho (also, tachi and tanto). But was the 1645 edict on swords and hair styles that permissive? |
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worldantiques
Member
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Posts: 81
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Post by worldantiques on Jun 23, 2017 18:20:42 GMT
A long and short sword, that is a "daisho", they did not have to be a matched set and yes, a katana and tanto would have been considered to be a daisho. In general, katana and tanto = daisho (also, tachi and tanto). But was the 1645 edict on swords and hair styles that permissive? Timo, I do not read Japanese so I have to rely on what I have been able to read about the edict that has been translated. Generally you find katana and wakizashi as "matched daisho" but occasionally you do see matching katana and tanto. I would carefully look at the existing period photos and see what is being worn as "daisho". Another thing to remember, generally most lower ranking samurai were very poor, I have read that some samurai used an empty koshirae for one of their swords as they could only afford one real sword. Some tanto are very long, almost wakizashi size. I personally think that no one would have worried about what the smaller sword was as long as there were two swords showing. |
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Post by legacyofthesword on Jun 25, 2017 20:42:39 GMT
At least, I think this first guy is a samurai... he's only got one katana... and a tanto... and a saber... and a musket.... This second guy looks like he could be a samurai. But this looks post Meiji Restoration, so "samurai" might have been an outdated term at this point.... Boshin war era samurai from certain domains often wore various articles of western clothing, they could have western guns and shoulder mounted swords. This was a time when many samurai domains were trying to modernize and catch up with the west. There were still samurai rebellions up to around 1877 when the new government gained complete control over Japan for the most part and the de-samuraization of Japan became a reality. Here is a link to my Pinterest page, there is a board with over 1200 images of samurai, from the Edo period to the Meiji period. www.pinterest.com/worldantiquesThanks for the link, looks like you've got a great collection of images built up there. |
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