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Post by Irrissann on May 26, 2017 14:29:46 GMT
I decided that a video format was most useful for discussing the different hilts and blades found on non-regulation 1882's, so I did what any collector would. Bought a bunch of them, and filmed a video.
Here it is, for those interested.
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Post by victoriansword on May 26, 2017 16:01:18 GMT
Well done! I enjoy your posts on Instagram and it is nice to see you've branched out into YouTube. I look forward to your next video!
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Post by Irrissann on May 26, 2017 16:15:45 GMT
Glad you liked it. 2000ish words isn't exactly suitable for an Instagram post, and text posts often go unread, so I thought a video would have the best of both worlds
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Post by victoriansword on May 26, 2017 17:43:46 GMT
Definitely true! I linked it on my tumblr blog (victoriansword.tumblr.com) so hopefully that will get a few more people exposed to your work.
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Post by Irrissann on May 26, 2017 17:57:46 GMT
In that case, I've been following you for years without knowing it.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on May 26, 2017 17:59:28 GMT
That was informative. Thanks.
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Post by victoriansword on May 26, 2017 18:05:50 GMT
In that case, I've been following you for years without knowing it. Thank you!
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 26, 2017 20:23:40 GMT
Very nice video. Thank you very much.
I have, if I may, however some small enhancements to your , in general, good expose.
The first sword you show, the decorated German silver one, is a sword from an Officer of the French Colonial Army. What sets those swords appart is the eye for the sword knot on top of the knuckle bow near the pommel. Only Colonial Service swords have that eye.
In general, through the decennia, French sabre hilts were made of a bronze alloy, containing huge amounts of charcoal. This alloy has a typical light yellow slightly silvery tint and is very strong. Much stronger than normal bronze. Even the tone, when the hilt is struck, is of a higher pitch. This alloy is called ARCO. Wikipedia has a section on it. It does not oxydise so readily like brass or bronze.
The copper coloured, what you call ,, brass '', hilts were a fashion fad from that peroid. You will see it on some of the new Officers M1822/82 hilts too. Those have a lot of copper in the mix. That is why those hilts have that strong red colour. Brass, an alloy of copper and zinc, is yellow, but has a deeper, more buttery yellow colour, much like bronze. It needs constant attention since it oxydises rather fast. It was THE alloy for anything household related whether it be pots and pans or the highly decorated fire places. Brass was everywhere. That is why, in the great houses, there was an army of young girls doing polishing duty, before the master and/or the mistress would wake up. That was after they cleaned out the many fire places first mind you. Lastly, the grips on almost all French Officers sabres and swords were made from solid buffalo horn. French buffalo that is. There is no wood core in there. It is 100% horn. There were of course also some wood core grips, but those were mostly covered in shagreen. Leather was for the troopers.
I must say: You have some nice swords there. I hope to see more of your collection.
Cheers.
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Post by Croccifixio on May 27, 2017 0:22:37 GMT
I love this thread. More people to follow.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 1:22:45 GMT
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Post by Dave Kelly on May 27, 2017 1:25:00 GMT
Thanx for the vid. Your courage, in opting for video, is commendable. Tried it once. Hated the outcome. Fusing with L'Hoste's, "Les Sabrse" trying to count the authorized 1882 styles. L'Hoste tends to lose track in his categories and repeats himself. I think I found 5, plus the colonial version. Also senior officers continued to sneak in the 1855 hilts, with doctrinally approved new blades. French Infantry officer blades could be ordered with blades in 5mm increments from 75 to 90mm. Your exposition on piquet and line swords is really a British perspective not shared by the 3d Republic. I really don't know if the use of piquet in modern application pertains to tactics or card playing. Piquet in 17th Century terms did mean military pickets/outposts. The term levee is more accurate to 19th Century small swords. The line service sword was set aside for more gentile affairs of salon, court, and "walking out". Uhlan has again regaled the board with the mysteries of Arco brass production. Various retailers dabled with the amout of copper mixed in their process. Some french late swords are distinctively darker than others.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 1:27:14 GMT
Jean Binck speaks briefly of these and yes, as more likely colonial use. Africa, etc. Shagreen would make sense in the heat. Reused after the second empire, I don't know.
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Post by Dave Kelly on May 27, 2017 1:42:10 GMT
My fantastique may be earlier than the 1882. No hole for a sword knot and no reinforcement of the branches of this steel hilt. According to the blade poincons yours is an 1845-55 fantasy product. Variant I didn't see in Petard or L'Hoste.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 1:46:52 GMT
Dan over at SFI shared Georges Léon as the cutler. It is possible the assembly was later. ```````````` www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?5333-French-1882-Infantry-Pattern&p=53999#post53999"It is said that the M1882 was developped on the basis of a non regulation sword with a steel hilt with side bars worn by the French African troops called "modèle lèger" (light pattern) and which became fashionable on the end of the second Empire. But there are no obvious evidence for this." Best, Jean ~~~~~~~~~
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Post by Irrissann on May 27, 2017 2:36:31 GMT
Hey everyone,
Thanks for the comments, learning lots here. Particularly surprised that the sword knot orientation makes it a colonial sword, I couldn't find that information myself so I'm glad someone out there knew this. I'll likely have to add some annotations to the video.
Regarding "horn over wood", yeah, mea culpa. Annotation upcoming.
I'm very interested to read about this ARCO alloy, anyone have a link to any articles or websites talking about it? I searched but found nothing.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 27, 2017 3:34:33 GMT
I picked up a non standard 1882 a while back, super light and feels like a smallsword, But sticks out like a sore thumb in my collection.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 27, 2017 5:36:00 GMT
The problem with Wikipedia is that, if you do not bookmard a result directly, you will almost never find it again. Double frustrating is the fact THAT I bookmarked the Wiki, but cannot find it anymore in my bookmarks. My bad. To prove that I am not pulling assorted legs here, here is reference to Arco from an undisputed source: swordscollection.blogspot.nl/2012/02/french-xi-cuirassier-heavy-cavalry.htmlThe coal Jean Binck states as an ingredient was in fact a high amount of charcoal. The Arco Wiki is tucked away in a larger article. If one forgets the keyword for that article, it is impossible to find a reference again. The Wiki search engine is a total shambles. While Jean Binck vaguely implies that Arco was used only for the HC Cuirassier hilts, in fact ALL French sabre hilts were cast from Arco. To get to the bottom of the Arco enigma I suggest you email Jean and ask where he got the info. Here is another reference to Arco, though not very accurate: www.antique-swords-and-sabers.com/french-dragoons-officer-saber-mle-1784/Arco is still used widely. If one searches for: Arco brass, the results are many, but, of course, without the Arco Wiki....... Dave: I liked your video very much. There's nothing wrong with it as far as I can see. And that M1882 hilted with an M1845 hilt, is in fact an M1882 with the hilt of the M1845 Officier General. The much larger double decker hilt. I recall mentioning that before.
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Post by Irrissann on May 27, 2017 6:46:31 GMT
That description of arco being paler and more buttery makes me think my 1821 Garde Nationale is made of it - it looks distinctly different from my other brass and bronze stuff from outside france.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 27, 2017 11:41:21 GMT
That is true. I see the hilt of your, very nice indeed, M 1821, is rather oxydised. If you were to scrub it clean, you would have a clear view of how Arco looks: very light yellow, with a silvery tinge. ALL hilts were cast from Arco, but as the state of the art was more like going by the rule of thumb at that time, there are of course slight variations in colour. Your M1821 has superb and very fine detail. You seem to have a good eye for quality. Do you have info on what year the sabre was made and where? As a rule all French Officers hilts were fire gilded. I am curious as to whether there is still some gild in the deeper parts of the detail work, or under the washer. Mercury or fire gild tends to be thick in the low parts of a cast and thin on high detail. Our relatively modern electro plate has it the other way around.
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Post by Irrissann on May 27, 2017 12:11:08 GMT
That is true. I see the hilt of your, very nice indeed, M 1821, is rather oxydised. If you were to scrub it clean, you would have a clear view of how Arco looks: very light yellow, with a silvery tinge. ALL hilts were cast from Arco, but as the state of the art was more like going by the rule of thumb at that time, there are of course slight variations in colour. Your M1821 has superb and very fine detail. You seem to have a good eye for quality. Do you have info on what year the sabre was made and where? As a rule all French Officers hilts were fire gilded. I am curious as to whether there is still some gild in the deeper parts of the detail work, or under the washer. Mercury or fire gild tends to be thick in the low parts of a cast and thin on high detail. Our relatively modern electro plate has it the other way around. There's still some fire gilding on the hilt, mostly in the gaps around the leaves on the pommel, and on bits of the quillon. It seems to have stuck to the more "textured" areas. The blade has "S H" or "S H I" inscribed onto the gilding on one of the semicircles on the ricasso. If that matches anyone known for making French swords, it may be possible to track down the maker. The "Garde Nationale" inscription is frost or chemically etched (I actually have another 1821, and it's also frost etched there). I dont know if this assists in dating them, as all the 1821's I've seen have that text frost etched.
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