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Post by stopped1 on May 25, 2017 12:33:05 GMT
So I have always wanted a Miao dao. Even got a copy of the training manual (苗刀技法) written by Guo Ruixiang and a training model from the same gig, with Guo Ruixiang's seal, serial number and all, forgot how much it was but it was dear (got hammered for shipping on DHL). Anyway, I have zero knowledge with Chinese Martial arts but I just like the sword, can't really find any where to learn it in Sydney. I would like a functional cutter. I decides to have one built. The manual states the following spec: -5 ft long in total with blade being 3 ft 8 in, handle 1 ft 2 in. -blade width 1.2 inch -round/oval guard The training sword I have has a round handle, which I hate (being an Iaidoka, it feels so odd). And I am trying to keep the package short enough for using EMS so the whole blade and tang needed to be 140cm or so. I found a seller that would do a long blade but they don't have chinese sword fittings (not nice ones anyway) so I decided to build my own. To keep cost down I am going with standard chinese katana blade width, the sword will pretty much be built like a production Nodachi. Settled for 106-108cm blade excluding Habaki, 30-32 cm tang, handle 13-17cm longer than the tang. the blade width is close but the length is slightly shorter, compensated by the longer handle. it will come with shirasaya so that I can mount it myself. Now, I guess I could no longer call it a miao dao if the "offical" spec were to go by. But there there are similar Chinese long swords, like the chang dao and the wo dao and the size changes over hundreds of years anyway, I guess I could call it that. A over grown katana (ebay nodachi) is out of question, I want a chinese sword. I didn't want katana style bohi neither but I needed to reduce a bit of weight, so I picked Unokubi zukuri and asked for pointy tip. I made it clear that I wanted no yokote, no fake hamon, no bohi (naginata hi), just a narrow grove in the center. 1060 TH blade with only a slight curve (2cm). I guess it will sort of look Japanese still but it is fine, Wo-dao is a chinese Qing era sword that is ironically translated as "Japanese sword" Just paid deposit and I will be getting in a month or so. To make it look more Chinese, I am going with ring pommel and S guard (like taichi-dao or daidao guards) or I will make up a disc guard. Will see how it goes and report back in few weeks. Here is the pic I sent to the seller and was agreed upon.  Open for any suggestion/comment as it is early days so I can make changes if need be. By the way, I just measured the training Maiodao, the blade is no where near 3ft 8 in.... what the heck.... |
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Post by Taiwandeutscher on May 25, 2017 12:40:21 GMT
According my knowledge, an s-shaped guard on some Taiji Dao is a western influence of not even 100 yrs. and surely doesn't fit a Miaodao, disc guard is a must. My 2 Cts.
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Post by stopped1 on May 25, 2017 12:44:50 GMT
Here is the tarining Miaodao next to my iaito for scale.  |
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Post by stopped1 on May 25, 2017 12:50:22 GMT
According my knowledge, an s-shaped guard on some Taiji Dao is a western influence of not even 100 yrs. and surely doesn't fit a Miaodao, disc guard is a must. My 2 Cts. Okay.... all antique chang dao pics I could find also have disc guard actually. Think you have a point. Was trying to avoid having to build a round guard, I don't want a Tsuba, I want one with a wall around the rim if I am to get a round guard.... lots of work. But i better get it right first time, the ring pommel/tang extension will be welded onto the tang so I won't be able to take the guard off unless I saw the pommel off.....  |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 25, 2017 21:40:47 GMT
Flat guards (with no rim/wall) go back to the Tang (or earlier). Rimmed/walled guards are more common in general, but on the (Ming and Qing) changdao in "Iron and Steel Swords of China", the most common guard is flat (most are round and quatrefoil, one might be square). The others have walled/rimmed guards (round).
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Post by stopped1 on May 25, 2017 23:09:05 GMT
Thanks for the input. I have also seen pics of flat guards but I really want walled ones as they look less japanese. The whole blade is like a cheap production nodachi x naginata to start with so the flat tsuba will make it more so. I may just weld a rim on or I can actually buy a 70-85 HSS hole saw and just temper and grind the teeth off, it may be too perfectly enough tho...
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 26, 2017 0:28:15 GMT
You could cut a guard from sheet steel, and fold over the edge. As long as it isn't too thick, it should work OK. Historical ones can be made with separate rims brazed on, cast in one piece (brass or bronze guards, not iron/steel), or have hot-forged rims, or cold-forged rims (i.e., as I suggested above).
Welding will be fine, structurally.
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Post by stopped1 on May 26, 2017 1:11:05 GMT
Out comes the hammer  will give it a try. Just have an idea, I could just temper and grind the teeth off the 80mm hole saw, heat it up and beat it with a hammer so that it looks more forged and not machined. |
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Post by stopped1 on Jun 8, 2017 12:33:43 GMT
Quick progress update. No blade yet, still 2 weeks to go but I have the fittings sorted. ordered a hole saw on ebay. It was like $6, and when I looked at the listing after paying I realized that the seller listed it as "Stainless HSS steel", no ways I would put stainless on my sword so I panic and got another one that has been blued as well. Both arrived same day at work. I quickly cleaned the oil off and covered it up with vinegar soaked news paper, by the time I finished work both rusted and surprised the silver "stainless HSS" one rusted had a heavy layer or rust, I have never been happy about ebay seller getting things wrong until today. Got home and checked for hardness, both seems to be as hard as my files so I heated them till red hot to soften them. The "stainless" one had carbide inserts so would be hell to cut so I tried the plain steel tooth ones first  The bloody thing must be made from a air hardening alloy steel, heating it up did nothing to soften it, it was actually harder than my files. So I ended up doing the one with carbide inserts, it was still very hard but I could get my file and saw blade to bite. Grinding didn't work as the carbide kept cutting groves into the grinding wheel. Took a while to cut just under the inserts but I managed  Not I have a disc with heavy 4mm thick base and 4mm high wall, the wall is about 2mm thick so I can say it is weapon grade guard. Used cold blue to darken it as looked ok  I am leaving the shaft on for now so that I can mount it on a drill to sand off the machine marks later, the blade slot should be doable with HSS drills and some filing, I am so not looking forward to filing it.... Got a ring pommel/collar from another project, looks pretty good on with the disc guard so I guess I will just have to make another set.   Now I just need to wait for sword! Hope it comes soon. In teh mean time I ordered more rattan and also some dark brown waxed cotton strings, I will see which ones look better. I have developed a taste for the 2mm rattan wrap (it is painful to wrap, but I like it better than 4mm ones). The scabbard is from the same seller so will come with the same brass scabbard mount and butt caps, I may leave them as it is. When I got time, I can always solder a set of iron one and replace them. The hangers will be 2 iron D rings bound with either leather strings or the waxed cotton strings. I have lots of Kevlar strings at home so I will sneak them underneath for strength. Maybe I should keep the saya rattan and the handle/d ring binder brown waxed cotton for a two tone look.  By the way I found a place that does Pigua Quan/ Tong Bei Quan in Sydney and the have class not clashing with Iaido/Kendo days! It is Sunday 7:30am Wrote to them and they said the guys in charge had an accident last week but will get hold of me shortly, may be I can finally learn to use a two handed dao one day. Attachments:
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Post by stopped1 on Jun 8, 2017 14:44:06 GMT
agrrrrr..... I actually find a gig that will sell chinese dao fittings.... Most of of description are in Chinese the site is in english. Any they will ship for about $25. Think I need to buy enough parts..... www.yoycart.com/Product/525787266105/ |
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Post by stopped1 on Jun 8, 2017 14:52:35 GMT
This site is extremely difficult to navigate but looks like I found some stuff I need (want?), some sellers got hangers, some have chinese fittings in iron, tachi fittings, han dachi, jain fittings... getting paid in two days so will order and report back!
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Post by Taiwandeutscher on Jun 9, 2017 1:30:21 GMT
Very interested in your work.
The fittings (disk guard) on your linked site might be too small for a long 2-handed Dao, no?
And isn't there any other way to get such a guard done than to use such a sawblade?
I still go a 2-handed sabre and sword blade each, but as I got some really nice finished blades, I never bothered and took time to finish those blades.
What I though was using a nice piece of steel of my choice and try to work the guard out with a laser (I have some connections). Is that possible at all?
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Post by stopped1 on Jun 9, 2017 3:39:36 GMT
The link was just to show they we can get various dao/jian fittings in brass and steel. I may not go with that set. Many antique chang dao photos I see smallish dis guards tho. My practice miao dao has a very large guard. Thats part of the reason why I put up this thread, I am just not sure. The other confusing thing is the curve. From what I have read and seen in supposedly historial drawings. The older two handed chang dao were almost straight, ming wudao drawing were either curved like katana/tachi or with handle forward curved (against the blade curve, similar to many dao). Qing green standard wudao drawings were almost like katana but some painting showed almost straight blades. The modern miao dao are almost straight. Think it is whichever way we want depending on the time period we try to copy. The hole saw are not that bad I guess, 2 mm wall and 4mm thick base. Comes in any size up to 120mm diameter. They too perfectly round so I need to heat it up and hammer it a bit to make it look like forged. Or I could solder the wall on a disc, which will be less robust than the hole saw. The way it was eating up my files and saw blades, I properly should have just made a soldered one. I guess I will only know when I get the blade and put different guards to see which one I feel is best. I do have a large disc guard lined up. I have a 10.5cm round guard that a friend made out of 6mm copper plate, even got a rim hammered on. He build it for my antique dao that was missing a handle and a guard so we quickly put a few fittings together to make it function as a sword. I have since developed a distaste for this guard, the scabbard has plain iron fittings (some idiot painted it gold and I haven't worked out how to get it off without killing the black patina underneath), so I guess it needs iron guard and hilt fittings one of these days. It was also way too large for the old dao, I may put the steel disc on the old dao and use the copper guard on the chang dao...   Lazer cutting? I would love to have access to it, for engraving to open work fittings. You lucky man. But that means you will just have a flat disc guard, why not just buy a plain round/oval iron tsuba on ebay then? |
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Post by pellius on Jun 9, 2017 14:50:26 GMT
For what it's worth, Sinosword/JKOO will sell Chinese style sword fittings to you. Some are very nice brass or copper, painted if you want (all are production line - hand cut fittings go for more than a new Albion).
It's not advertised on their site. I emailed them a few times. They got back to me within a few hours - impressive considering I'm on the other side of the world.
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Post by stopped1 on Jun 9, 2017 15:09:56 GMT
Thanks! I will give them a try, that other site is doing my head in..... so hard to navigate
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 14, 2017 22:13:53 GMT
The other confusing thing is the curve. From what I have read and seen in supposedly historial drawings. The older two handed chang dao were almost straight, ming wudao drawing were either curved like katana/tachi or with handle forward curved (against the blade curve, similar to many dao). Qing green standard wudao drawings were almost like katana but some painting showed almost straight blades. The modern miao dao are almost straight. Surviving Ming and Qing examples are straighter than the katana-curved examples seen in art. I'[d call these ones pretty typical artistic and surviving examples:  I don't recall seeing a forward-curved hilt. They're either straight or maybe with a very slight backward curve, except for one example, the top one here:  which has a significant backward curve (but maybe this is damage, rather than the original shape). The bottom changdao here is the straightest Ming one I have every seen. |
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Post by stopped1 on Jun 16, 2017 14:25:03 GMT
Think you are right. I finally remembered where I saw the forward curved grip. It wasn't old painting or something, just a documentary I saw sometime ago and it was a computer generated imagine. Watched it again, lots of errors in the documentary so not really worth much.  Now, something more authoritative, according to Wubei zhi, it looks like this  The length listed is super long. Blade 5 ft, with bottom 1ft covered by "copper blade protector" (maybe like a very long habaki thingie so that one can grip the blade and "half-sword"?), handle 1 ft 5 in, total 6 ft 5 in. Now I need to figure if Ming ft/in is the same as now or what. Weight 2.5 kati so about 1.5kg or 3.3 lbs. The weight is a little light..... maybe the Ming Kati was different even... I have opted for a slight curve so it should fit in with more examples. Small guard too. I am going with the one with a rim because it feels more Chinese to my eyes. |
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Post by stopped1 on Jun 16, 2017 14:53:20 GMT
Agrrr... I dug deeper, I found this site. They cited two different old military manuals..... and I quote "Cheng Zong You's Dan Dao (left) and Qi Ji Guang's Chang Dao (right). While generally considered identical, Qi Ji Guang's Chang Dao has a one chi long bronze collar at the forte, which is not found on Chen Zong You's Dan Dao." 2.bp.blogspot.com/-YETubk6RRO4/WNtm2VttFaI/AAAAAAAADgE/Tf39oExhV6MH7lJZZBAalzkuOKcI9h2igCLcB/s1600/changdao_dandao.jpgOne says 3 ft 7 inch total (that's preety much a katana size) and the other one 6 ft 5 in in total. By the way, I just googled it up the "ft" and "inch" were not close to what we know today, even though in modern Chinese, these words means Imperial units as we know today. Old Ming measurement "ft" was closer to 33cm and there were only 10 "inches" to a "ft", so whatever they listed, they were even longer.... Also found an example on Mandarinmansion, this example is pretty close to a katana, except with typical Chinese tang mandarinmansion.com/woyaodao-chinese-saber-japanese-style |
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Post by stopped1 on Jul 13, 2017 7:21:27 GMT
Blade arrived.... and it came in 3 parts to get it short enough to post (actually it is still way too long but the post office sort of turned a bling eye), the next 60 sec was me trying to rip the blade out the tape/newspaper.  And....... they have buggered up my order! I wanted a single edge sword, they have made a back edge 1/3 way up from the habaki, it is very long a Kogarasu-Maru that they shipped me...... And I asked for the skinny grove in the middle, no big bo-hi typical of production sword, nope, big bo-hi and no skinny grove in the middle, totally the other way around. The measurements are almost exactly as asked. Blade spot of and tang 2 cm short, the bare blade weight 1.1kg so not too heavy.  I guess I will still mount it and call it a Chang Dao, it is not wrong and the sword is pretty light handling. Besides there is no returning the sword, the blade measures 140cm, max length allowed by auspost is 105cm. the other alternative is DHL, which will pretty much cost more than the blade. I will mount it and see how it goes. |
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Post by stopped1 on Jul 13, 2017 9:44:40 GMT
Just got back from work (I left 1 hr to go to the post office, opened the package and went back to work my hour, things I do for swords.....), more on the blade I received. Here is the tip, typical double edge  The bo-hi typical production sword, should have been narrow center grove  It is a VERY long sword, here is my Iaido Shinken next to it  The new blade next to past orders from the same seller, Think that's how they got it wrong as I asked for double edge before and this is my 3rd order.  Pity it is curved, or I will mount it as a two handed Jian.  Seller just wrote back, she has agreed to replace the blade (really blade only, how do they expect the saya to fit the exact curve?). I just wrote back and say I will meet her half way, she does the blade and I will pay for a plain saya to be made). If she agrees, I will have my chang dao, PLUS the no-dachi thingie to mount. I like that double edge blade enough to want to keep it, just that I still need a bloody chang dao! Two bad custom orders from two different sellers in 3 months.... not a good sword season for me |
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will give it a try. Just have an idea, I could just temper and grind the teeth off the 80mm hole saw, heat it up and beat it with a hammer so that it looks more forged and not machined. 
