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Post by jammer on May 26, 2017 20:26:05 GMT
During the 16th century short swordsmen, jutte-men, and so on, were grabbing the tsuka between the two hands and neutralising the long sword, the shorter tsuka was born from that problem, and maximisig the blade length based on drawing the sword quickly was an invention of the muso schools of iai eventually leading to the, almost ubiquotous, chu kissaki in iaijutsu (post 17th century). That is my understanding of the phenomenom of shorter handles and fitted blades. the history stuff I have read seems that after the samurai were put down and swords were worn for ceremonial reasons. this is when they started to make things smaller. they made them easier to carry around. but who really knows Ü The samurai were present until the occupation, in the 50s, in fact sumo are still granted status, there is a small amount of kendoka that are interested in kenjutsu when they get older. In fact, being from samurai stock still has currency in japan. Samurai wore two swords as a status symbol,so some could use them, and some could not. Those that could use them tended towards shorter tsuka, and to maximise blade length based on a more civillian role, that is beter expresed in iai, hence the proliferation of that art styke.
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Post by jammer on May 26, 2017 20:36:42 GMT
Sure, makes sense. Most important thing is to do as instructed and to conform to the program. Still a jutte is not as long as a katana regardless of whether your handle is 6" or 15", so the insistence on reach seems to be the wrong thing to fixate on. A jutte is small precisely because it is a tool to "catch" a sword. Once caught the best place grab with the off hand is on the oponent's tsuka. If the juttte man gets his hand on your tsuka, and his jutte on your sword, the techinque was to violently pull apart the grip on the tsuka,in an attempt to release the police grip. Long tsuka this did not work, short tsuka it did. Hence the rapid and ubiquitous move to shorter tsuka. We see this in all the 17th and 18th century schools.
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Post by Cosmoline on May 26, 2017 22:45:30 GMT
Pretty slick. You'd have to be quick to close the distance and lock down the blade, but it seems possible. That open space between the hands was a vulnerability in ringen with longsword as well.
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Post by wazikan on May 26, 2017 22:53:21 GMT
this contradicts everything I have ever been taught. except for the dual swords
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 0:59:36 GMT
Sure, makes sense. Most important thing is to do as instructed and to conform to the program. Still a jutte is not as long as a katana regardless of whether your handle is 6" or 15", so the insistence on reach seems to be the wrong thing to fixate on. A jutte is small precisely because it is a tool to "catch" a sword. Once caught the best place grab with the off hand is on the oponent's tsuka. If the juttte man gets his hand on your tsuka, and his jutte on your sword, the techinque was to violently pull apart the grip on the tsuka,in an attempt to release the police grip. Long tsuka this did not work, short tsuka it did. Hence the rapid and ubiquitous move to shorter tsuka. We see this in all the 17th and 18th century schools. That's cool information I did not know. I've heard many proponents of long tsuka explain them as being more common prior to the period that coincides with modernization and a change in the social function but not really in terms of looking to a shorter tsuka for practical reasons you outline. It's probably a combination of factors, but it is nice to see a rational explanation aside from just not wanting to bump into the furniture. It kind of validates the argument that longer tsuka were used - in order to move to shorter one someone had to be using a longer one right?
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Post by adversary on May 27, 2017 9:34:20 GMT
Without knowing a thing about this stuff, i would also just assume that a longer tsuka just gives the user more options to manipulate and control a sword. You could still use a long tsuka like a shorter one, but the opposite obviously is not going to work.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 11:42:59 GMT
Yes, it gives you a number of things. It's a better lever so in addition to your own ability to manipulate and control your blade, it gives you a chance to resist another persons efforts to manipulate and control yours when they are in contact, and to make it more difficult for the other person to resist yours. Your hands aren't bolted to the handle, so by changing the placement of your grip you can get quite a bit of extra reach which as we all know is the single most important factor in edged weapon fighting (*eye roll sarcasm mark etc*), ok not that critical but it's an option.
But a lot of this hangs on being able to know how to put it to use. And there are ways to negate the advantages, and I'm sure ways for someone to take advantage of the long tsuka. It isn't the One True Configuration some people make it out to be. I like longer tsuka personally but that makes sense because it's what I'm used to. I'm actually pretty happy in the 13-13.5" range, which works for me better than the 15" I started on. That's the sweet spot for me, shorter than that I start feeling cramped, longer than that I start to lose some coherence. The point is people are going to have different shapes and proportions so you really need to figure out what works for you, unless sensei says "Get X", then you either get X because it's what they do there or find another place to be. :)
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Post by Google on May 27, 2017 16:06:58 GMT
ZNKR sandan, muso shinden ryu and now katori shinto ryu. i'm 175cm tall and use everything from 28 to 36 inch nagasa, my normal lengths are 30-33 inch. I try to keep the tsuka 9.5-11 inch, longer usually get in the way.
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Post by adversary on May 27, 2017 23:31:31 GMT
Interesting.
5'9" with a 30-33" blade?
Now, are any of you practitioners that like longer nagasa worried about dragging the kissaki along the ground, accidentally touching it, etc. I know we're not twirling these things around like some movie character here, but there is a lot of swinging, some sword down movement, and i've watched a few suburi on Youtube and it seems to get close. Accidents happen... or do they?
Again, from my miniscule knowledge here, i would think i'd rather a shorter blade that balanced nicer in my hands, and i could cut faster with, than a longer one with with more 'reach'. Sound thinking? or no?
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2017 2:09:35 GMT
One of my katana is long, not 30+ inches, but long enough that I can hit the floor if I'm careless. The answer is to not be careless. There was one particular thing I needed to adapt, I couldn't do it as instructed because the kissaki would have been in the floor so that kind of started me down the road to getting a blade sized appropriately for what I was trying to do.
It's hard to say, there's weird math going on with how a blade feels in the hands. If I said I have two swords, one has a 14 inch handle and a cutting edge of about 29" and the other one has a 13.25" handle and a 26.25" blade, you'd logically think the smaller one would be faster or handle better, but there's so much going on. You can see the thickness and think they are really close if not the same, but holding the blade in your hand you can't see the nakago shaping and how that affects the balance and that's just one example. A heavier blade can actually feel livelier depending on how all those bizarre factors converge. Numbers and measurements are all nice, and a good starting point, but I'm a firm believer in getting the thing in your hand if you can.
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Post by adversary on May 28, 2017 6:57:08 GMT
Yeah, wouldn't that be nice... to be able to handle EVERY sword you come across before you buy it. The grand irony here, is that you can do just that with nearly everything in your house and life... before you buy it. Yet, something like a katana... which is such a personal and variable thing... where the feel alone can change the whole experience, and such tiny variables making such huge differences... something that (depending on who you ask) can have an actual soul... you almost never get to hold until you've already bought it. Its backwards.
Further, i'm not told, but utterly assured that even the best Chinese 'custom' production sword feels entirely different (and not in a good way) than actual nihonto. Perhaps its just snobbery, but i am assured, by everyone involved in the game, that there is NO comparison. It would seem just silly to assume that two identical pieces of steel... one forged in a Chinese factory, one forged in a Japanese (wherever they forge these things), and assembled identically, could feel so different... but perhaps there IS something to that 'soul'...
At any rate, it would see that unless you want a Paul Chen sword (i dont)... there is no test driving a katana. I'm down to three options... one i'd much prefer over the other two, and all are going to be sight-unheld... so wish me luck.
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Post by jammer on Jun 1, 2017 19:22:20 GMT
A jutte is small precisely because it is a tool to "catch" a sword. Once caught the best place grab with the off hand is on the oponent's tsuka. If the juttte man gets his hand on your tsuka, and his jutte on your sword, the techinque was to violently pull apart the grip on the tsuka,in an attempt to release the police grip. Long tsuka this did not work, short tsuka it did. Hence the rapid and ubiquitous move to shorter tsuka. We see this in all the 17th and 18th century schools. That's cool information I did not know. I've heard many proponents of long tsuka explain them as being more common prior to the period that coincides with modernization and a change in the social function but not really in terms of looking to a shorter tsuka for practical reasons you outline. It's probably a combination of factors, but it is nice to see a rational explanation aside from just not wanting to bump into the furniture. It kind of validates the argument that longer tsuka were used - in order to move to shorter one someone had to be using a longer one right? I think that the direction of swords towards duelling weapons, and more civilian type self defence, led to them becoming smaller. This seems, from my limited knowledge, to also happen in europe too. Swords went from cavalry primary weapon to an infintrary and archer secondary weapon, to status symbol and "carry around" high status means of self defence. The schools were servants to this, and prowess in swordsmanship increased status, despite the fact that even the best swordsman sometimes didnt even bother to take one into pitched battles as infantry, preferring bows and spears etc in Japan, and rifles with bayonets in europe. I think that longer tsuka in japan are an artifact of them being cavalry tsuka, and as they became carry arounds new styles of kenjutsu emerged, and iai as a discipline, where drawing quickly was prioritised. The practicalities of wearng swords constantly, and also being disarmed via the long tsuka by police without swords, and thus shamed, became higher priorities. Despite schools of iai, and kenjutsu, stil existing with all sorts of dimensions, the prevelant and most effective styles conform to the max draw length and shorter tsuka dimensions, i think.
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Post by wazikan on Jun 1, 2017 23:00:30 GMT
drawing the blade it really the only thing that is not effected by the tsuka length. its done one handed, I guess the weight difference might come into play. but only barely.
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Post by Robert in California on Jun 2, 2017 1:05:28 GMT
My Sensei (long ago) got me a 27 1/2" katana. I wanted 29". But the 27.5" was a pretty heavy Shinshinto, so I guess he figured the extra weight compensated somehow for the shorter length. I do find though, a 27.5" is easier to noto than a 29". But then again, I'm not very good. I never asked the Sensei why 27.5" when I was 6'2". But then again, he spoke Japanese and I did not. RinC (I still like a 28.5 or a 29"'er but still do find a 27.5"'er is easier to noto)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2017 2:20:14 GMT
I don't think the extra weight of the tsuka factors in any more than worrying about the extra density of a silver habaki vs a copper one - yes there is a numerical and technical difference and more wood does weigh more than less wood, but at that point I think we are splitting hairs.
I tried using my gunto with the original WW2 handle which is obviously shorter than 13.25", and it wasn't a big difference aside from my lack of familiarity. Drawing the sword and putting it away there was no real difference.
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Post by Google on Jun 5, 2017 7:39:33 GMT
I take really good care not to hit anything unintentionally with my swords. My rule is this: get the longest, best balanced sword you can. A longer reach with good balance is superior to shorter one, and if you're in tight spaces use a wakizashi. It's true you can't always try the sword, but sometimes you have to risk it.
From my experience chinese can produce swords that feel better than some nihonto. I had several swords by kaneie forge (1000-1500usd) that handled the same or better than shinsakuto 5 times the price.
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