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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Jun 4, 2008 3:56:36 GMT
is it posible to make a hamon in a fire/flame design or would itweaken the blade or just be too big a pain in the @$$
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 4, 2008 4:49:07 GMT
I'm pretty sure I've seen it. I'll see if I can find an example for you. but I am almost certain I did see it. hmmmm
dig through summerchild.com maybe that's where I saw it I'll let you know if I find it. this is buggin me now
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2008 13:30:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2008 20:08:25 GMT
You mean something like this?
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Post by oos3thoo on Jun 4, 2008 20:38:50 GMT
is it posible to make a hamon in a fire/flame design or would itweaken the blade or just be too big a pain in the @$$ It would be a pain in the ass, but the results would be by far worth it. Wait... DO you mean an already existing sword or a new one?
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Jun 4, 2008 20:42:38 GMT
either..... some people posted some good works and I think I'm going to get an angel grinder tonight ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2008 21:00:14 GMT
Lemon's example is better, but for something easier to make, check the SBG review of Yasha ( not sure i spelled it right ) katana. It's the last one in the katana section on the SBG site, one for 2000$.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2008 23:56:31 GMT
woah nice knife!!! how much for that beast?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2008 0:03:18 GMT
This is custom work by Don Fogg.
As for the prices, well, we're talking about thousands of $ here, hehe.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2008 1:55:19 GMT
That is a beautiful blade by Don Fogg. In the second pic there seems to be hardening on the spine (mune?) is this a bad thing? Wouldn't this lead to the weakening that swordboy was talking about? I see this a lot on smaller blades online, maybe it is OK here but not on a Katana?
DJM
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2008 2:47:21 GMT
DJ, the more hard stuff the better! It would be a pain in the ass, but the results would be by far worth it. Why would it be a pain in the ass? When in proper control with your temperature and clay application, you can just about get any pattern you want, even to the point of being able to write words.
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Post by salvatore on Jun 5, 2008 2:55:13 GMT
A fire esque style would be a sanbansugi or a midare style hamon. If they are polished correctly, the yaki-ba really fills in and makes it look more artistic.
In my opinion, anyways...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2008 15:14:58 GMT
Sam,
Maybe I have this all wrong. Isn't the hamon produced by the DH process? If this is the case then wouldn't it be optimal to have an uninterupted softer mune on a blade? If you have discontinuities in the hardness of the mune, say going from HC45 to HC60 and back again, wouldn't this be a stress point and therefore weaken a blade?
DJ
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Post by salvatore on Jun 6, 2008 2:16:25 GMT
Sam, Maybe I have this all wrong. Isn't the hamon produced by the DH process? If this is the case then wouldn't it be optimal to have an uninterupted softer mune on a blade? If you have discontinuities in the hardness of the mune, say going from HC45 to HC60 and back again, wouldn't this be a stress point and therefore weaken a blade? DJ I have always thought that myself, maybe even a less dramatic hamon, leaving more soft steel to absorb shock.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2008 3:24:37 GMT
Sam, Maybe I have this all wrong. Isn't the hamon produced by the DH process? If this is the case then wouldn't it be optimal to have an uninterupted softer mune on a blade? If you have discontinuities in the hardness of the mune, say going from HC45 to HC60 and back again, wouldn't this be a stress point and therefore weaken a blade? DJ Dj, yes differential hardening is designed to dreate a soft spine and hard edge, with the hamon line to showcase the delineation line. But the whole differentially hardened versus through hardened thing creates alot of mixed feelings. It's all based alot on personal preference, but there are some truths. Hardened spots on the spine of the blade would not necessarily be stress points, they would be good things. ANY hardened steel is a good thing, it only makes the blade better, THROUGH HARD is much better than differentially hardened, be it with a hamon or with a torched spine, or edge quench. On any DH blade done proper the edge will not just be left as hardened and should be tempered as well down much below 60, or you would swing the blade and cut something and the edge would crack but the spine would bend. Alot of times this was the case with japanese blades which is why you make ashi lines, bands of softer steel penetrating into the hardened steel edge to halt any cracks from the left-too-hard edge from going up too high. It was designed to be too hard, and instead of just tempering it properly a bit more, they solved the cracking issue with more soft steel mixed into the hard edge. This might not be the case now with some makers (Don't know any specifics or nothing), but some these days will get around the need for ashi lines and differentially harden they're blades, but then temper the whole thing to bring the edge down to a reasonable hardness level for the best combination of hardness and toughness, but still end up with the weakness of a soft spine. It might seem like the perfect combination of a super tough spine supporting that hardened edge, but you would be better off by just having the whole sword made of the hardened and tempered tough steel, which is better than soft tough steel, no? One extreme to the other, neither is as good as the middle, the proper combination of both. In this way the hamon becomes only an aesthetic, which is not a bad thing, in fact IMHO it is one of the most beautiful things ever created on a sword, and part of a rich deep fascinating culture.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2008 16:32:00 GMT
Sam, Thank you for your thoughtful response. I agree that the hamon is a beautifully designed solution to a sticky problem. It is very clear to me that I need to read more on this subject, so that I can keep this all in my head. I have been looking at books, any favorites?
So, the spine on the above blade still has different crystal structures along the edge, right? This what I am seeing (in the different refraction pattern)? If this is true, don't you think the difference in the crystal structure along the spine would lead to a differential dispersion of the stress created from striking the blade edge?
DJMahoney
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Post by Dan Davis on Jun 12, 2008 20:09:24 GMT
For your amusement: the hamon of a custom blade I've got out for polish. Please note the polish is almost but not quite done. This blade represents a prairie fire in progress. Note the nioi-deki "smoke clouds" floating above the multiple hamon. This is actually one final hamon; crystallized just as the blade dropped completely below the descending phase-transformation point (A 3).
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 12, 2008 20:32:07 GMT
That's awesome. I can't wait to see it fully polished.
One of these days I'm going to have to make it back down and spend more time at your forge. I'd love to see something like this go from start to finish in person.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2008 1:31:42 GMT
There's your flame Swordboy. WOW, that is just beautiful
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jun 13, 2008 1:58:43 GMT
Pretty as a picture. Awesome.
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