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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 15:36:31 GMT
Don't it being useful for "breaking the opponents momentum". As for trapping, the edges of the notches look quite rounded - you could do them more square, or even with acute angles. Not sure that would be good. Sure, it might trap the opponent's blade and stop if from sliding along your blade all the way down to the guard, but why would you care if it slides all the way down to your guard. It might also stop you from sliding your blade along their's to put your guard against their blade. Some possible but very small benefit. Some possible but small disadvantage. Which makes me wonder what Parierhaken on large two-handers are for. I don't think you want to fight longsword-like in the bind with them, so that takes away the disadvantage above. Perhaps it might be useful to stop an opponent's blade further up your own blade. But perhaps Parierhaken are also useful for keeping an opponent's blade between your guard and the Parierhaken - maybe not to keep the opponent's blade out, but to keep it in? Makes sense. Keep the blade between the guard and the parrying hooks, sudden sharp backward and downward pull and thrust into the head or neck. |
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Jun 20, 2017 15:23:22 GMT
Often times when it comes to situations like this, it's easy for modern people to arm-chair speculate about what would or wouldn't be useful sword construction/technique. It's easy to come to all sorts of baseless conclusions through pure logic (which is why science completely crushed philosophy as a way of producing knowledge).
So we should probably be deferring to the people with the real experience (historical fighters & sword makers) and see that it wasn't popular and used, ergo is highly likely to be super effective.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 20:05:36 GMT
Often times when it comes to situations like this, it's easy for modern people to arm-chair speculate about what would or wouldn't be useful sword construction/technique. It's easy to come to all sorts of baseless conclusions through pure logic (which is why science completely crushed philosophy as a way of producing knowledge). So we should probably be deferring to the people with the real experience (historical fighters & sword makers) and see that it wasn't popular and used, ergo is highly likely to be super effective. Considering the placement of your post in the thread, I will suppose you were referring to the opinions I and Timo Nieminen were sharing regarding the parrying hooks. My my answer to that is this: As I said and commented on the possible application of hooks to trap swords BETWEEN the hook and guard, I also began researching as much material as I could find on the greater two-handers. Plus, I sent emails to a few people who are pretty much authority on certain things and asked their opinion too. Only one replied, saying that while that person was not aware of such an application, it could be useful, provided the hooks were neutral in their direction of curvature of the hook. That person is currently speculating and researching this. My answer to the 'arm-chair speculation': I, being a scientist and a doctor in training, believe that while experimentation is always necessary in order to disapprove a null hypothesis before a theory is even thought to be correct, all theories and laws start at their base and foundation by imagination and speculation. Science disproved Philosophy, not mulling over and thinking of new ideas to put to the test. Philosophy is without proof by vigorous experimentation, while Science at its base is not strict and guided Philosophy tested by stringent standards. |
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Post by Cosmoline on Jun 20, 2017 20:43:47 GMT
Notches would be useful for catching blades, but they'd equally interfere with your own actions from a bind. So I would expect them to be most useful with left hand, defenses swords or bucklers that seek to deflect and delay while the other blade cuts.
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Post by jammer on Jun 22, 2017 19:38:10 GMT
As an interesting aside wrt to sword catchers. Jutte means 10 hands, I have heard well articulated theories that such weapons were like large combs, presumably 10, or close to 10, prongs on the off-hand. Filling the same niche as a buckler in europe.
Not looking at all like we would think of as a sword catcher nowadays, a minor pronged iron truncheon.
I have seen edo jutte, they are like modern day ones, I would be fascinated to see what 16th century jutte looked like.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2017 21:38:33 GMT
As an interesting aside wrt to sword catchers. Jutte means 10 hands, I have heard well articulated theories that such weapons were like large combs, presumably 10, or close to 10, prongs on the off-hand. Filling the same niche as a buckler in europe. Not looking at all like we would think of as a sword catcher nowadays, a minor pronged iron truncheon. I have seen edo jutte, they are like modern day ones, I would be fascinated to see what 16th century jutte looked like. There did exist a sort of parrying dagger with notches, according to my very infant knowledge on the subject:  |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 22, 2017 22:41:34 GMT
As an interesting aside wrt to sword catchers. Jutte means 10 hands, I have heard well articulated theories that such weapons were like large combs, presumably 10, or close to 10, prongs on the off-hand. Filling the same niche as a buckler in europe. Not looking at all like we would think of as a sword catcher nowadays, a minor pronged iron truncheon. I have seen edo jutte, they are like modern day ones, I would be fascinated to see what 16th century jutte looked like. There are two very different weapons called a jutte/jitte. There's the familiar truncheon with a belt hook, and that already existed pre-Edo (16th century long ones were often longer than Edo long ones, up to 3' or so). This is the weapon called 十手, "ten hands", which is probably named similarly to the manrikigusari (chain with weights on both ends), , "ten thousand power chain" which can be translated as "mega-powerful chain". "Oh, he has a sword!" "Don't worry, just take your ten-hands truncheon, and you'll be 5 times as powerful as him." Then there is the jitte/karakurijitte/yarijitte, which is a blade/spike with a folding guard:  commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Karakuri_jitte_folded_and_opened.jpgThis goes back to the 16th century, if not earlier. While the romanisation can be the same (jitte), this is written 實手, "true hand" or "real hand". It's been suggested that this weapon is the origin of the name 十手, since the shape (when opened) is like the kanji for "ten", 十. See no.pinterest.com/pin/7881368077284369/ for more info. The second type, 實手, looks like a more effective parrying weapon. The first type, 十手, is a police weapon, a truncheon, which forced its use against swords, but its main functions are to hit people with like a truncheon, and to say "I am a policeman". |
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