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Post by vermithrax on May 1, 2017 0:01:01 GMT
Just my 2 cents from all that I have been looking at for a while.
Seems real antique nihonto the purist will moan about a "poor" or not "high grade" polish on a sword. Ok, I sort of get that, though I most times do not like the mirror like final polish done on many of the old swords.
What cracks me up, and all up front I am not a fittings guy at all, is that the tsuba I see most coveted look like they just got recovered from a 300 year old shipwreck. Somehow, that aged look is awesome.
I understand signatures, schools, eras, all that and can appreciate what makes a tsuba rare/prized. Still, seems funny to me. There are also many old era tsuba that are magnificent and look sharp so this is not a blanket observation.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 1, 2017 1:17:31 GMT
Many/most old tsuba are deliberately patinated (both iron/steel and copper alloys). Some iron/steel tsuba are etched - this is often done with iron/steel laminated tsuba, to show the "iron bones", the lamination pattern.
Because of those features, they can't be simply polished back to restore their original appearance. So old iron tsuba might have rust, and won't be polished to remove it, since it would destroy what's left of the original finish. The purist who seeks a sword with intact polish will also seek fittings with intact original patina. Added to that, tsuba aren't protected by a saya, and are more likely to rust, all else being the same.
IME, corrosion doesn't add to the value; corroded Edo Period tsuba can be very cheap. The better the condition, the higher the price, all else being the same. Do you have any particular counter-examples in mind?
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Post by vermithrax on May 1, 2017 1:52:34 GMT
Many/most old tsuba are deliberately patinated (both iron/steel and copper alloys). Some iron/steel tsuba are etched - this is often done with iron/steel laminated tsuba, to show the "iron bones", the lamination pattern. Because of those features, they can't be simply polished back to restore their original appearance. So old iron tsuba might have rust, and won't be polished to remove it, since it would destroy what's left of the original finish. The purist who seeks a sword with intact polish will also seek fittings with intact original patina. Added to that, tsuba aren't protected by a saya, and are more likely to rust, all else being the same. IME, corrosion doesn't add to the value; corroded Edo Period tsuba can be very cheap. The better the condition, the higher the price, all else being the same. Do you have any particular counter-examples in mind? I don't really, I focus on the swords. I am looking for vintage fittings for a purchase but am amazed at the prices and the look of period matching pieces.
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Post by Verity on May 1, 2017 4:52:50 GMT
Fittings are a bizarre world... I also am new to fittings but have studied blades for years and concur.
Though a proper polish isn't mirror
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on May 1, 2017 10:39:18 GMT
Some examples would be helpful to understand what you mean. Good quality stuff will always be expensive and low quality stuff can be obtained for lot less.
Restoration is completely possible but similar to polishing it will require professional work. Ford Hallam has done spectacular restoration projects and I think Marcus Chambers and Kevin Adams can also do these. The proper restoration can completely rejuvenate the item but of course it is recommended that item is good/decent quality to begin with so it will be worth restoring.
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Post by vermithrax on May 1, 2017 22:22:04 GMT
Verity, I know not mirror polish but the final high grade finger stone level polish. Ok, so a few examples. And again I am in NO WAY saying this is wrong and or stupid, just an observation on my part and as I value fittings on a far lower scale than swords makes little difference to me. Almost $2700 tsuba; linkFor about $1000 one could get this totally bad ass tsuba with a raised spider and web accents. I actually really like this. link
Just personal preference, that was all I was saying with this thread.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 1, 2017 23:17:19 GMT
Hardly "shipwreck" quality. Apart from a little rust, close to original condition. One purpose of the original patination was to provide some protection from rust - clearly reasonably successful.
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Post by Maxie on May 1, 2017 23:27:45 GMT
Verity, I know not mirror polish but the final high grade finger stone level polish. Ok, so a few examples. And again I am in NO WAY saying this is wrong and or stupid, just an observation on my part and as I value fittings on a far lower scale than swords makes little difference to me. Almost $2700 tsuba; linkFor about $1000 one could get this totally bad ass tsuba with a raised spider and web accents. I actually really like this. link
Just personal preference, that was all I was saying with this thread. I kinda get what you're saying but that first tsuba is still pretty dang nice, probably not the best example for what I think you're trying to get across. Wouldn't mind using that design on a custom.
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Post by vermithrax on May 1, 2017 23:46:36 GMT
Different tsuba appeal to different people, not unlike swords. If I have been unclear in what I meant, and this was an opinion post, I am sorry.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 2, 2017 1:48:46 GMT
FWIW, I don't like the $2,700 tsuba. I'm just saying that it's in reasonable condition, especially for its age.
A similar thing where fittings are collected separately, and their prices can seem extreme, happens in the keris world. E.g., hilts can be $1,000s, and even the mendak (the little "cup" or ferrule at the blade end of the hilt) can be very expensive (although in that case, it's sometimes precious stone that make it so).
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 2:01:06 GMT
Neither really speak to me.
I regretably don't know that much about fittings, aside from occasionally grabbing ones that spark my interest. It really is its own area of study and interest.
I'm more interested at this point in design and motif than material and age, it's more accessible. Some of the fuzzy old ones are hard for me to appreciate. I can see an appeal in being able to make out some of the intention through the fog of time and neglect, the artist's work fighting its way through a hopeless battle to an inevitable loss has a certain romantic element that isn't lost on me, but I don't know this area any better than anyone else. I look at a tsuba and fuchi and go "Dragons are cool" or "wow someone really worked on that little plant leaf".
Maybe someday I'll get there. Maybe I'll stay uncultured. It's a neat area and I can understand that people can get drawn into it even if I'm limited in my personal ability and knowledge to appreciate it.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on May 2, 2017 15:11:04 GMT
I am not a fittings collector but pre-Edo period fittings usually command a premium. Something like ko-tōshō or ko-katchūshi are highly collectable due to their age and rarity. They are usually pretty plain and not the most beautiful ones you'll see. Just plain old tsuba. They push the buttons of historical collectors like myself. Of course dealers know that some people pay a lot from these so market price is generally high for these.
The ko-tōshō would probably be from 1400's (could even date to 1300's) and the Umetada is probably from 1650 - 1700. So that is quite big gap in age. Later tsuba are more flashy and "more collectable" while earlier ones were not highly decorated.
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Post by treeslicer on May 2, 2017 19:08:35 GMT
IMHO, unlike blades, original Japanese tsuba and other fitting prices show little logic. The upscale shops have upscale prices for stuff that can be had for $100 or less from less pretentious sources. One simply has to comparison shop. Be it noted, I'm talking about things in the same range of quality as were linked in the post above, not museum grade signed masterworks with lots of gold and meticulous carving.
If you are a sword user rather than a collector, I'd advise avoiding big-name shops and pricey origami in favor of buying from what amount to "samurai junk dealers". There are about 5 reputable Japanese ones to be found on eBay. Virtually anything they have is better than mass-produced aftermarket fittings. Oh, and don't confuse the antique sellers I'm talking about with the "Japanese Mall" outlets peddling repackaged Chinese goods, which are the online equivalent of "tourist traps".
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Post by vermithrax on May 5, 2017 2:01:46 GMT
Funny thing, after this thread I was looking over tsuba and ended up buying a somewhat plain one so I am not to be trusted!
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Post by treeslicer on May 5, 2017 2:30:40 GMT
Funny thing, after this thread I was looking over tsuba and ended up buying a somewhat plain one so I am not to be trusted! No harm done there, IMHO, in working tsubas, plain means good taste. Here's the last one I got, to complete a daisho with.
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Post by seriouslee on May 5, 2017 20:01:24 GMT
Wow, that spider web one is amazing.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on May 7, 2017 9:03:05 GMT
Well the market usually sets prices and dealers ask as much they can possibly get. With fittings it is the same as with swords, some schools and makers are valued much higher than others. I know few expensive and highly regarded schools but as I am not really a tosogu collector the fine details of pricing are somewhat a mystery to me.
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