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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2008 21:35:18 GMT
The recent injury of Sal from machete got me to think about other guardless edge weapon and I would like to get opinion and observataioin . There are a few knives and swords out there that did not come with guard; Finnish Puuku knife, Dha , Kukri and shirasaya so how the original user avoid getting injured from them and historically this above mention weapon were used by some fierce and battle harden users ( the Finn, Gurka and yakuza to name a few ). I saw one movie from Finland (winter war ) and in the hand to hand combat scene the Finnish soldier was pumping his Puuka into the rib case of Soviet intruder without getting the blade ride up on his hand. Is there is specific technique pertaining to these weapon or the user just have to be very careful ? I really like cutting things with shirasaya but I kind of love my fingers more.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2008 23:00:22 GMT
Well, cutting things with Shirisaya is too dangerous, since those fittings are not meant for use.
Second, it's a bit different with a knife. The grip is often waisted or otherwise shaped to keep the hand firmly in place. A sword can be made guardless, as some Katana were, but you do have to be more careful. Particularly with Katana, being a two-handed weapon, hands are shifting and moving, changing grip as needed. With this motion, it's often nice to have something to keep from accidently slicing your fingers off, or just learn yo be DAMN careful.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2008 0:06:52 GMT
well like musashis zetsuirn its at least got some ito to grip and not just smooth wood but again i would make sure i had a firm grip and that i did not even attempt to stab ANYTHING but also id just wear gloves
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Post by salvatore on Jun 2, 2008 2:36:37 GMT
Why is a thread started right after I got hurt! Just messing with you, but I am going to have to make chainmail the next time I cut with a guardless blade,lol. Any ways to make guardless blades safer without F***ing up the grip?
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 2, 2008 2:57:35 GMT
Any ways to make guardless blades safer without F***ing up the grip? Superglue 'em to your hand? ;D actually, thinking about this I might experiment (very carefully) with the opposite method: a very loose grip. now before I get flamed to a crip let me explain. first, think about proper sword grip for two handed with the index and middle fingers more relaxed. how many times have we seen someone actually extend their index and/or middle finger to point parallel to edge of the blade (mostly this is an exaggeration to demonstraight how the sword should be held)? if we take that grip and accentuate it even more to precisely line up the edge of the blade with the extended fingers we would not get cut if the hand slipped forward off the hilt, one would simply slide along the back of the blade or drop it altogether. to sum up: grip the hilt in such a way that your fingers will not naturally curl around and grip the cutting edge. obviously this is not a good idea for double edged blades. I just think a more relaxed grip is the way to go versus a tight, squeezing, clenching grip. maybe I'm crazy tho. but then again I haven't cut with a guardless sword.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2008 3:28:28 GMT
Wrap it in unpolished same even if your hand is soaked with blood you won't loose your grip. What about having a longer hilt and holding the sword towrds the middle, even if your hand starts to slip you should be able to correct you grip or let go before cutting yourself.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Jun 2, 2008 3:34:42 GMT
shark skin works and is easy to come by at most fish markets
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 2, 2008 3:47:25 GMT
Caution is the name of the game as is shape of the grip. Ultimately it's a matter of practice. Find what works by learning (the hard way at times) what doesn't. The only time I've ever cut my fingers on any of my blades (and I have several guardless) was when my PK slipped out of its saya once when I bent to pick something up, and I caught it by the blade like an idiot. Other than that I'm free and clear of injury and I've put my kukri and Zetsurin through some rough stuff, as well as several knives with no guards, or minimal guards. You'll pretty much want to have some sort of swelling toward the blade-end to keep your hand from going any further in that direction, or perhaps a fatter mid-section on the single-handers. Either way should hold your hand firmly in place with the right grip. Oh, on that note, I wouldn't recommend attempting that grip method, ian. I'll also second the "don't cut with shirasaya; they're not meant for that."
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 2, 2008 3:49:34 GMT
Shark skin. Samegawa was the name of the main character in a japanese movie I recently saw called "Sharkskin man and Peach-hip girl" the names of the two main characters were Samegawa = sharkskin and Momo(whateve hip is, I forget) weird flick. just weird. I liked it.
Random: yeah that was all brainstorm theory, thus my reccomendation of being very careful. I do find a relaxed grip slips less than a clenched one but perhaps I was over stating the extent of the relaxing. I mean you do need to hold on to it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2008 7:32:26 GMT
Like xanatoas said, wear some kevlar gloves. They're cheap and easy to get. That way, even when something will go bad, your hand is safe.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2008 12:10:20 GMT
It seems to me that a lot of knives without guards have lanyard holes. My dad taught me to put my hand through the lanyard leaving my thumb out ,then gripping the knife in a normal manner. that will of course only work if you actually have a lanyard attached to the knife.
"Why is a thread started right after I got hurt! "-Salvatore
You know how people always tell you to look for the "bright side" when something bad happens? Well your accident has brought all of our attention to how dangerous our hobby can be. thank you.
I am glad to see that you are back with us, and hope that you are healing nicely.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2008 12:21:51 GMT
shark skin works and is easy to come by at most fish markets If you want something less historic, skateboard tape also works. I know a lot of shooters who use it like glue on stipling/checkering for their handguns. For that matter there are all sorts of racquet tapes for tennis, squash, etc. that would probably help maintain your grip on a slippery knife or sword. I've used these on wasters to good effect. You can buy all these in sporting goods stores.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2008 5:06:54 GMT
shark skin works and is easy to come by at most fish markets If you want something less historic, skateboard tape also works. I know a lot of shooters who use it like glue on stipling/checkering for their handguns. For that matter there are all sorts of racquet tapes for tennis, squash, etc. that would probably help maintain your grip on a slippery knife or sword. I've used these on wasters to good effect. You can buy all these in sporting goods stores. Funny that you mention this because I use hockey tape on few of my pistols and even some of the swords to create better secure grip but I have not think of it taking place of the guard. I did some water bottle cutting on Saturday and realize how much water spill over to the grip , if this happen with shirasaya the handle will be all wet and slippery . I think I better reserved the shirasaya for close quarter fight with dry target .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2008 18:17:59 GMT
Funny that you mention this because I use hockey tape on few of my pistols and even some of the swords to create better secure grip but I have not think of it taking place of the guard. I don't know that I would recommend using them in place of a guard, but if you are worried about a secure grip on your sword in general, they're certainly a possibility.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2008 1:35:24 GMT
I don't think I would ever cut with a shirasaya... It is like asking to get hurt.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 13:20:55 GMT
Skall: I would not suggest cutting like that, on that kind of blade, holding like that will cut you really bad if you slip and a grip like that promotes sweat which leads to slipperyness. You just need to learn how to cut or stab properly with a guardless blade.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 15:09:03 GMT
I know a guy who tried that and it didn't end well. I know that after he got his hand stitched up he decided not to cut like that again. I've used that grip with other weapons, but knives are not the best for that grip, there are other ways that you can stab with guardless weapons.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 15:55:16 GMT
A one handed technique is good if you do it correctly, the other thing that I find somewhat ridiculous about people who use guardless blades is that they don't alter the handle to have a surer safer grip and unless you are stabbing a brick wall or something you should not be applying enough pressure for the hand to slide down onto the blade.
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Post by alvin on Jun 13, 2008 1:57:54 GMT
Hey jj. I too thought that the grip illustrated by Skallagrim was a fairly standard grip style. Though I tend to prefer the grip that you show in your post - the one with the thumb along the top of the grip. It seems to be more secure for thrusting and cutting.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2008 5:56:47 GMT
Thanks Skallagrim and jjshade for the illustrations .I recalled learning similar grip from Cold steel proof video when they show the proper grip for the shin dub (now discontinued version call Culloden ) I would imagine that this grip would be for emergency use only because it seem that one must close in, practically up to the eye balls with the opponent to deliver the stab. The Gladius wound thread scared the heck out of me I better not add "Shirasaya is not a toy " thread to this board
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