|
Post by vermithrax on Apr 19, 2017 22:57:13 GMT
So here is what I am thinking about.
While I am a scientist (I don't just play one on TV!) it's molecular biology, not cutting edge tech. I thought I would tap the collective experience and knowledge here at SBG for some ideas.
Old nihonto swords (old era japanese katana swords) and the process by which new fittings (tsuka, shirasaya, etc) are made is to ship out the actual sword for the work to be done. Now leaving aside the nerve bundle that shipping a sword of this type causes, it's also nearly ~$600 for insured shipping inside US and more for Japan. High cost and high risk to one's antique blade. Things get lost or broken.
Now I was thinking would it be possible to 3D scan the actual blade, then have a 3D printed replica made to match the real sword as close as possible? This item could be shipped out free of worry and if anything happens, a new one made from the saved file.
The wooden copies of swords, called tsunagi, are close enough to hold the fittings for long term storage. I am not up to date on 3D tech, but I would think a very close replica could be made withing acceptable tolerances for new fittings to be made.
|
|
|
Post by Vincent Dolan on Apr 20, 2017 3:24:30 GMT
It's certainly an interesting idea. The only issue I could really see cropping up is finding a 3D printer large enough to print the replica sword; to my knowledge, most commercially available 3D printers are only capable of printing things that are about 8"x8" at the max, which is a far cry short of a full sword's length, but like yourself, I'm not super familiar with current 3D printing tech, so I could be wrong.
I'm also not all that familiar with 3D scanners, so I don't know what their limitations would be, but the idea definitely has merit for all types of swords, not just nihonto. Especially if the person making the fittings had a 3D printer capable of printing the replica, as you could then cut out the need to insure and ship the sword in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by Croccifixio on Apr 20, 2017 8:42:42 GMT
It's a good idea but you'd need access to the technology of course. Another option would be to make a clay mold of the sword at home (easy and cheap) and cast the lower half with something cheap like brass. Or even wax, though that might be a bit too soft. You'd save on shipping too given the length reduction.
|
|
|
Post by vermithrax on Apr 20, 2017 22:35:10 GMT
I am in touch with a local shop that does 3D scanning and printing. My contact seems very confident they can do this, so I am going to follow up. Interesting!
|
|
|
Post by Verity on Apr 20, 2017 22:57:43 GMT
I am interested in how this turns out too. Depending on how precise this could take a lot of worry out of scabbard production, Japanese fittings and shirasaya / koshirae crafting and maybe even habaki...
Takes a lot of consumer worry when they are shipping around a multi thousand dollar Nihonto or a high end custom Euro...
|
|
|
Post by vermithrax on Apr 20, 2017 23:12:22 GMT
I am interested in how this turns out too. Depending on how precise this could take a lot of worry out of scabbard production, Japanese fittings and shirasaya / koshirae crafting and maybe even habaki... Takes a lot of consumer worry when they are shipping around a multi thousand dollar Nihonto or a high end custom Euro... This is why I am looking into this. If one wanted new fittings, say for a new purchase , and there is NO way they would send the blade back out, then this would be a great alternative. It's going to depend on cost of course.
|
|
|
Post by seriouslee on Apr 20, 2017 23:12:28 GMT
3D printers will change the game but it'll take time. They are prohibitively expensive at the moment.
But I can foresee a day when they scan a 500 year old sword and you get a clone made from new material. But today it would cost more than travelling to Japan and picking out the sword of your dreams.
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 20, 2017 23:12:38 GMT
It's a good idea but you'd need access to the technology of course. Another option would be to make a clay mold of the sword at home (easy and cheap) and cast the lower half with something cheap like brass. Or even wax, though that might be a bit too soft. You'd save on shipping too given the length reduction. I like this idea. You could even use a file to get it to perfection easily, as brass is very soft and takes shape very well. Would also be durable and not lose shape or warp due to element changes.
|
|
|
Post by vermithrax on Apr 20, 2017 23:15:31 GMT
For the replica blade (tsunagi if you like) all that's needed is a plastic print, or a molded resin. Strong enough for handling during use for fitting. Not a metal printed copy. I am exchanging ideas with a larger shop here in metro Boston, this may allow access to higher end printers and a lower cost. The contact seems very interested in swords all of a sudden, so maybe I get a price break
|
|
|
Post by Verity on Apr 20, 2017 23:17:06 GMT
This could actually be an entire business
|
|
|
Post by vermithrax on Apr 20, 2017 23:29:50 GMT
This could actually be an entire business I did hammer home the point that if this can be done, and it works after sending out to a fittings guy, then there could be 100's of collectors lining up to get one made.
|
|
pellius
Moderator
Posts: 5,240
Member is Online
|
Post by pellius on Apr 20, 2017 23:39:05 GMT
Seems like you could transmit the electronic file instead of the physical "printout." Also, seems like you could have your pick of printer anywhere in the world, and ship the "printout" from there.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 20, 2017 23:41:49 GMT
It's a good idea but you'd need access to the technology of course. Another option would be to make a clay mold of the sword at home (easy and cheap) and cast the lower half with something cheap like brass. Or even wax, though that might be a bit too soft. You'd save on shipping too given the length reduction. One problem with cast replicas is that they are usually smaller than the original, due to shrinkage while cooling, shrinkage as resins set, etc. It can be avoided, but takes knowledge and effort. For some real casting fun, you can make castings that are larger than the original: www.artmolds.com/shrink-enlarge
|
|
|
Post by vermithrax on Apr 20, 2017 23:43:55 GMT
Seems like you could transmit the electronic file instead of the physical "printout." Also, seems like you could have your pick of printer anywhere in the world, and ship the "printout" from there. There are 3D printing auctions sites where you send your file and places bid on the work. In the science field, we auction off our outsourcing all the time. The price point lowering is insane.
|
|
|
Post by vermithrax on Apr 21, 2017 22:26:04 GMT
Ok, here is what I have from discussions withe 3D firm.
A 3D laser scan with the detail needed to make a within 0.1mm tolerance STL or CAD file is going to cost ~$400. This file can then be used by this firm to do the 3D print job or shopped around via auction etc. I do not have a 3D print price estimate as the file is needed to calculate costs.
So this probably makes this idea in the ~$600-$800 range. I was hoping for $300~$400 tops.
Ways to make cheaper? Maybe only print half the sword (the nakago half). Try to auction the job out. Keep in mind this firm is one of if not the best in Boston area so I figured for a one off piece it was going to be pricey.
Next step is to contact a fittings/shirasaya maker and see if they would agree to work on such a replica. Some might be purists and not want to work this way. I had not thought of that.
Still, considering insured pricing two ways (maybe ~$1100 for a 4-6k sword) and all the worry one would have over shipping the blade, this may not be too bad even at this price.
To be continued.......
|
|
|
Post by natqui on May 1, 2017 11:28:50 GMT
Very interesting idea indeed. Always liked 3D printers, but as you stated: very pricey. A somewhat good printer for the general public goes around 5k, imagine one that could print a sword sized material^^ One idea I got right now: Why not create some 3D-printer-fund on this forum?? People that would be interested could "donate" (it's more like an investment) and have the printer hosted at sb's house. I believe that if the sword community does that, it will surely be cheaper (no business profit margins, taxes and stuff like that). Depending on location. I did not really think this trough, since I wrote it as I was thinking ^^ so don't hesitate to correct me
|
|
Scott
Member
Posts: 1,676
|
Post by Scott on May 1, 2017 11:54:54 GMT
Given issues with shrinkage of a casting or resin, would a cnc machined copy be a better option? You'd need a machine capable of working to the tolerance required but might be worth looking into.
|
|
|
Post by vermithrax on May 1, 2017 12:27:38 GMT
Good ideas on last 2 posts.
|
|
|
Post by natqui on May 1, 2017 21:09:33 GMT
Given issues with shrinkage of a casting or resin, would a cnc machined copy be a better option? You'd need a machine capable of working to the tolerance required but might be worth looking into. Yes that could work too! Using a cnc to carve out wood, for example. Turning wood (in a lathe) would not be an option, because swords have rarely a perfect cylindrical form, it's more like an oval. Thinking about katanas actually, but I guess only ice picks are round ^^ If you cut into metal sheets, there would be no 3D look. Plus, to cut metal, usually people have a plasma cutter (which does not look very clean, you'd have to file down the 'burned' residues) so that is no option. Looks like someone already tried to 'produce' a wooden sword with this kinda cnc machine ^^ So, here am I thinking a bit more...and I actually came to the conclusion that, there are different types of wood, but not all are good for the same thing. Most do not keep their form (due to hydrometry, while shipping or sth) and others are probably too 'brittle'/'cracky' ^^ or too hard. But there is, at least, one type of wood that is water resistant (used to make boats) and its *damn...forgot the name...* sth with 'M', 3 letter word, anyway... I also found this webpage: www.diy-wood-boat.com/Timber.html#Common_Boatbuilding_TimbersThink about it: if you build a boat, the timber is sure as hell somewhat water-resistant (salt water actually). This timber-list above informs on the...let's say... HRC of the wood xD (yop, mixing different types of jargons ^^) If the wood does not move, and if it's cheaper (less weight) the one who sends it looses less money. Shipping costs go down, and risk of loosing/damaging blade is non-existant Wood can easily be replaced. P.S. gotta sleep...you know the drill: if this makes no sense, blame it on my tiredness ^^"
|
|