|
Post by howler on Feb 7, 2017 20:51:52 GMT
I do not believe cutting down the guard will effect the balance of the sword as it is felt in the hand. The mass of the guard is placed at the pivot point. As such, it is essentially "dead mass" since it does not serve to balance out the mass of the blade. Another way to look at it: If I give the guard on my Munich a diet, the mass of steel in front of my hand will remain the same (more or less). Likewise, the mass of steel behind my hand will also remain the same (again, more or less). By this logic, the overall mass is reduced, but the balance in the hand will remain the same ~~ Long story short - I believe that, when cutting down the guard, you do not need to worry about producing a corresponding reduction in mass along the blade. I see what your saying, as the weight is reduced near the POB, and some of those bars are damn thick.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Feb 7, 2017 21:22:07 GMT
I followed this interesting discussion and googled around a bit. Key word: ,, Compare rapier and repro ''. This outfit came up: www.historisches-fechten.at/wp-content/uploads/2015/0... and they have a very well done study on PDF. Lots of charts. The problem is that the PDF cannot be downloaded from the site, but if you click on the link in the google page, you get the PDF. Worth trying to get it I am sure. Very detailed, very German. Maybe this works: historisches-fechten.at/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Comparison_of_Period_Rapiers_to_Modern_Reproductions.pdfWhat it all comes down to is that the old blades were much thicker, 8mm and up. Having this thick blade they started thinning the blade at certain places to get the balance right. It has a lot to do with nodes and vibrations too. It was important to get the vibration node in the handle just behind the cross guard. In principle one could build the ultimate rapier blade with this PDF. That is what I got out of it. You can file all you want on a repro but it will still not handle like the rapier of old. Maybe a bit better yes. Enjoy the PDF. Cheers. Very informative. Seems the tapering deal has a lot to do with production costs. It also explains why manufacturers err on robustness over historical accuracy/handling, as your apt to get breakage/damage if not tapered right but with lighter weight.
|
|
|
Post by Dave Kelly on Feb 7, 2017 22:50:29 GMT
I do not believe cutting down the guard will effect the balance of the sword as it is felt in the hand. The mass of the guard is placed at the pivot point. As such, it is essentially "dead mass" since it does not serve to balance out the mass of the blade. Another way to look at it: If I give the guard on my Munich a diet, the mass of steel in front of my hand will remain the same (more or less). Likewise, the mass of steel behind my hand will also remain the same (again, more or less). By this logic, the overall mass is reduced, but the balance in the hand will remain the same ~~ Long story short - I believe that, when cutting down the guard, you do not need to worry about producing a corresponding reduction in mass along the blade. As stated this doesn't work. The problem comes up that the repro weapon seeks to approximate the feel of the original without investing in the metal of the original. The repro blade is too thin and not tapered historically, so the guard may be a counterweight to a doctored blade. You start messing with proportions and you will probably take the whole weapon out of balance again. Neither the point of balance or point of leverage is literal in construction; it is a manifestation of proportions worked out in shaping the whole sword. Plug one leak and spring three others. Considering the armor of mounted cavalry opposed to the type weapons carried, I personally think that most mounted swords of that period were primarily intended to thrust. This is in consideration of available striking places. ( NOT saying these are not cut/and thrust weapons. They are. Just that efficiency and lethality favors stabbing.)
|
|
|
Post by Afoo on Feb 7, 2017 23:23:15 GMT
I do not believe cutting down the guard will effect the balance of the sword as it is felt in the hand. The mass of the guard is placed at the pivot point. As such, it is essentially "dead mass" since it does not serve to balance out the mass of the blade. Another way to look at it: If I give the guard on my Munich a diet, the mass of steel in front of my hand will remain the same (more or less). Likewise, the mass of steel behind my hand will also remain the same (again, more or less). By this logic, the overall mass is reduced, but the balance in the hand will remain the same ~~ Long story short - I believe that, when cutting down the guard, you do not need to worry about producing a corresponding reduction in mass along the blade. As stated this doesn't work. The problem comes up that the repro weapon seeks to approximate the feel of the original without investing in the metal of the original. The repro blade is too thin and not tapered historically, so the guard may be a counterweight to a doctored blade. You start messing with proportions and you will probably take the whole weapon out of balance again. Neither the point of balance or point of leverage is literal in construction; it is a manifestation of proportions worked out in shaping the whole sword. Plug one leak and spring three others. Considering the armor of mounted cavalry opposed to the type weapons carried, I personally think that most mounted swords of that period were primarily intended to thrust. This is in consideration of available striking places. ( NOT saying these are not cut/and thrust weapons. They are. Just that efficiency and lethality favors stabbing.) Agreed. With a 4.5 mm stock (as is the case with the Munich), its not going to become a realistic replica no matter how much you grind. I still think taking weight off the guard will at least help to a degree. Same for the pommel - that thing almost has the mass of a lesser sword. Short of buying the Arms and Armour version, not much more one can do with it. I believe Aikidoka managed to make his Munich better by chopping the guard. Also, the finger rings are just a *bit* too small on that munich - I believe @uhlan had the same complaint in his review. If anything, thinning the guard down will help in this regard, if nothing else.
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Feb 8, 2017 6:04:22 GMT
Over on MyArmoury are two posts about the Munich, with one the comparisson of the Munich with the A&A. I think I mentioned those in my reviews, but if not I should have. The OP stated that thinning out the hilt branches and bringing the pommel down a bit so the knuckle bow ,, touches '' the pommel midway was what he did to the Munich. If I remember correctly there was discussion whether the lowering of the pommel was ,, historic ''. There are quite a few original Townguard swords around that have the high pommel, just like the repro. It may feel at first that it handles better with a lower pommel because of the tighter grip space, but of course the balance will be greatly impacted and move forward on the blade quite a bit I think. That pommel is huge and heavy and the further out it is better in this repro case I believe. In the end it was all about cosmetics. Thinning the hilt and rounding the blade shoulders will only take off a few grams, which in the case of the Windlass will not amount to much real difference in behaviour. Percieved difference is a totally other matter. That's all in the mind of the beholder. But if one were to do the same on an original I think the effect would be quite large. Lately I have come to see originals as something of an organic system, or for the music lovers amongst us, as a highly sofisticated melody. The originals were tuned to bits, much like a competition rifle in our days. Not only were they tuned to do a certain job very well, but I believe that for at least the more up marked ones, that those were tuned to the quirks of the owner too. If we talk weapon system, we think about higly complicated affairs on decks of highly tuned warships or something. The oldies could be seen as weapon systems in their own right too. The repros can be nice, but handle like an oldy on Qanax. As long as the producers refuse to up the ante and use thick stock, we will never taste the delight of a product that comes close to an original. At 4.5 mm we do not get to stick the file in. There is no meat.
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,327
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 8, 2017 6:30:36 GMT
True, but that's the haute cuisine of swordmanship. For me burgerfan it'd be quite ok if the oldie on Xanax looses a bit weight just at his fat buttocks! (No, I don't speak of myself, I don't need Xanax!)
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Feb 8, 2017 10:01:07 GMT
If you trained with, what in the beginning feels like, an overweight sword, what by the way the swordsmen of old did if the stories I read are true, I am quite sure that after a couple of weeks you would not feel it anymore and everything that bothers you now will be gone. Training is the key. Eat a lot of meat and hang an extra 5kg on the Munich for a month at 30 minutes a day. That thing will feel like a smallsword after a while.
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,327
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 8, 2017 11:52:40 GMT
Handling a MRL Atlantean made all my other swords much lighter, haha. But concerning the Munich I don't have a big problem with the weight itself, but that it feels somehow wrong balanced. I'd like to like it, but I can't.
|
|
|
Post by Afoo on Feb 18, 2017 18:25:08 GMT
Looks nice!
|
|