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Post by legacyofthesword on Oct 21, 2016 1:10:21 GMT
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 21, 2016 2:50:44 GMT
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Post by Dave Kelly on Oct 21, 2016 3:24:47 GMT
Look at Patrick Barta's Temple sales catalog. Various Roman-Byzantine cross influences resulting from trade and mercenary service in the empire.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Oct 23, 2016 3:42:30 GMT
So that style is a more Eastern style, more Slavic/Hunnish than Germanic? I've seen Islamic swords that look similar. Was this the influence of the jian traveling all the way west? Or was it developed from the gladius? How common were these types of hilts? Also, what's your take on the accuracy of the depictions of the swords in the Osprey illustrations? Sorry for the question spamming; I find that style of hilt very intriguing. |
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Post by legacyofthesword on Oct 23, 2016 3:48:23 GMT
Look at Patrick Barta's Temple sales catalog. Various Roman-Byzantine cross influences resulting from trade and mercenary service in the empire. I know the Romans made ring-hilt swords, but how common were they? Were ring-hilts also inspired by Eastern designs? |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 23, 2016 4:43:46 GMT
So that style is a more Eastern style, more Slavic/Hunnish than Germanic? I've seen Islamic swords that look similar. Was this the influence of the jian traveling all the way west? Or was it developed from the gladius? How common were these types of hilts? I'd call it an Eastern style. To be more precise, a classic Steppe style. IIRC, these look like they developed from Sarmatian and/or Persian swords. As Huns, Avars, Alans, et al. moved west, they took swords styles with them. Later Islamic swords were influenced by Persian swords, so some resemblance is to be expected. As for jian, there are very early Persian iron/steel swords which look a lot like Han iron/steel jian; the Persian swords are, IIRC, earlier than the Chinese ones. So the resemblance to jian might be west-to-east influence. Central Asia outwards, in both directions - for example, we see similar scabbard slides from China through to Western Europe, and these look like they spread from Central Asia. The second type of sword you linked, with the proto-Viking pommel, might be a development from late Roman swords. Also, what's your take on the accuracy of the depictions of the swords in the Osprey illustrations? The look OK to my non-expert eye. Finds like the sword of Childeric provide a lot of the elements in the Osprey art. Superficially, there's resemblance to the two you linked, but the cast bronze grips in your linked swords are very different. While the Childeric sword has a metal-covered grip (with 3 rings) and guard, the grip and guard were organic with a thin metal sheet. It's possible that the swords you linked are bad fakes of those kinds of hilts. (The sword of Childeric also has a lot of steppe influence.) I think so. There are quite a few ring-hilt swords that came out of graves in the Ukraine and Kazakhstan. There were earlier ring-hilt bronze swords on the Steppe before them which might be their stylistic ancestors. |
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 23, 2016 5:51:01 GMT
Look at Patrick Barta's Temple sales catalog. Various Roman-Byzantine cross influences resulting from trade and mercenary service in the empire. I know the Romans made ring-hilt swords, but how common were they? Were ring-hilts also inspired by Eastern designs? I can't recommend The Archaeology of Weapons enough (by Oakeshott). It's on Amazon for around $10. It answers all your questions and more. |
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Post by legacyofthesword on Oct 23, 2016 5:59:07 GMT
Looks interesting... and for ten bucks, can't go wrong. I'll have to pick up a copy.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,331
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 23, 2016 6:20:51 GMT
The Scythians/Scythes seem to be the transfer medium between europe and asia in the early iron age.
Later the huns and all other steppe people, and not to forget some Macedonians too.
In West China mummies were found with blond hair and in Bavaria graves from 500 - 600 AD with women with mongolian tower sculls, buried as a part of the family.
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Luka
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,848
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Post by Luka on Oct 23, 2016 9:46:12 GMT
Sarmatian tribes are the bridge that connects all this. They brought Han Chinese jian to the Western steppes (probably also helped to develope it as they were teaching Chinese how to fight as cavalry). Later Sarmatians, Huns, Goths etc. carried swords like the one above developed from the earlier Sarmatian/Chinese jians.
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AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,331
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 23, 2016 13:19:57 GMT
For the mentioned swords the Sarmantian tribes were the bridge.
I wanted to say that those eurasian horse nomads spreaded techniques like the making and use of bronze or iron to europe and asia and between them since the first known named people, the Scythes.
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