Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 9, 2016 5:18:28 GMT
Ever see the katana right after the tachi period? Quite different than the ones you describe
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 9, 2016 5:20:06 GMT
Ever see the katana right after the tachi period? Quite different than the ones you describe Also, I owned a kris cutlery 29. I doubt it's the most thin Katana in existence, but there were also thicker Katana than this after the tachi period as well My point being is that I am aware katana could get quite thin, but it's not accurate to the katana used during war periods
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Oct 9, 2016 5:27:28 GMT
Just keep nitpicking my posts. To me, nitpicking is a sign of desperate personality and a deep seated fear in being wrong, which only emphasizes my point in how the HEMA community is just about a superiority attitude.
Say what you want. I'll be reasonable when I feel you are being reasonable. I feel that I was once very reasonable. I was willing to admit my faults. Do the same and I'll be willing to chill out,
I'm only as reasonable as I am now cause I'm drunk. If I was sober I wouldn't be as willing to elaborate.
Just keep in mind that if you see me as unreasonable and see yourself as reasonable, that's only opinion, and I'm just as capable of feeling the same way about my perspective, regardless of how you feel.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Oct 9, 2016 5:36:25 GMT
Well, this thread started out as in inquiry as to why European swords take less damage comparatively when used against a Japanese sword in testing. As most threads that have to do with performance comparing the two, it kind of turned into something else. That's okay. Lets just have everybody stay respectful and keep this on a track that will lead it to a positive, potentially educational conclusion, please.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2016 5:42:12 GMT
Just keep nitpicking my posts. To me, nitpicking is a sign of desperate personality and a deep seated fear in being wrong, which only emphasizes my point in how the HEMA community is just about a superiority attitude. Say what you want. I'll be reasonable when I feel you are being reasonable. I feel that I was once very reasonable. I was willing to admit my faults. Do the same and I'll be willing to chill out, I'm only as reasonable as I am now cause I'm drunk. If I was sober I wouldn't be as willing to elaborate. Just keep in mind that if you see me as unreasonable and see yourself as reasonable, that's only opinion, and I'm just as capable of feeling the same way about my perspective, regardless of how you feel. Jeeez...have it your way then. For me I KNOW that i am not reasonable sometimes...you obviously dont. Over and out.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Oct 9, 2016 5:45:21 GMT
As of people who think katana and longsword don't cut with the same mechanism, here I used the same cutting method on both kind of swords.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2016 6:31:50 GMT
Nothing more to say, Mr. Chan! Cool cuts...especially that horizontal one with a more thrust-oriented longsword! By the way, who made that one? The one with the complex hilt?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 9, 2016 6:33:05 GMT
Fantastic is a representative of my opinion. I'm still allowed those. I want to embellish my posts ? Artistic license. I think katana can cut amazingly considering how thick and stiff it is, and how well it can still thrust. I don't care you disagree. Whatever. But when people start acting like their opinion is "fact" I get annoyed. If you're amazed by how well a katana cuts, fine. I'm not amazed by it. As I see it, a katana cuts about as well as I expect it to. I'm also not amazed by how well it thrusts; it thrusts about as well as I expect it to. As for a katana being an effective cut-thrust sword, I was saying the same thing myself, so I don't disagree with that. Read as written, "Now take the longsword to tameshigiri, you will see a properly made katana shine like a super nova" is a statement of fact. If you get annoyed by other people acting like their opinion is fact, why be surprised if others get annoyed if they think that's what you're doing? When is the last time you admitted to being wrong? Or that another might be correct? Not that it's relevant to the discussion, but today, more than once. My original point, to begin with, was that Katana is very specialized, but still people say it's inferior. If people say it's inferior, either ignore them or present facts. If they give no facts, just opinion, then ignore them. Unless you want to see whose opinion is louder. If you want to argue with them, ask them how they determine how good a sword is. Make them present facts. If their "inferior" is based on criteria chosen to favour that verdict of inferior, either move on, or discuss the criteria. If their "facts" aren't facts, either move on or discuss the facts. If their criterion is that a longsword is a "better sword" because a longsword has the advantage in a 1-on-1 duel, that's a poor criterion for a weapon being generally "better". A dragster will outperform, e.g., a BMW X5 in a drag race, but most people would say that the X5 is a better car. If you think the katana would have the advantage in a 1-on-1 duel, then feel free to argue that point, but logic will go further than loudness. Every weapon has a purpose. And the people who made them are way more deserving of the title "expert" than anyone on this forum. But stil, I see HEMA "experts" trying their hardest to "prove" that the katana is an inferior weapon. Even you ignore my points. Instead you focus on little nitpicks of my phrasing instead of my over all point. Your overall point? You wrote "My original point, to begin with, was that Katana is very specialized, but still people say it's inferior." A katana can cut, can thrust, is neither very long nor very short, can be used with one hand or two, is a convenient sidearm, can be used to block/parry. That doesn't seem very specialised to me. If I was asked what the specialty of a katana is, I'd have to say that being unspecialised is its specialty (and I said pretty much that up-thread). The only things I noticed you say specifically about how a katana is specialised is that a katana cuts supremely, awesomely, supernova-level, fantastically better than a longsword, and that it's specialised for offence. But the first isn't true - as you said yourself, some longswords can cut better - and the second is normal for swords. As for people saying it's inferior, see comments earlier in this reply. (Heh! In the one thread, I'm accused of picking on katanas and "wanking about the magnificence of the Japanese sword".)
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 9, 2016 6:47:03 GMT
When the HEMA community is able to be more flexible with their views, maybe I will be too. You guys don't even see your superiority complex, cause you guys are in an aggressive denial. Like galaxy owners. All I ever get is regurgitated information, like as if my supposed to go "oh there is that intelligent opinion only smart people have, I must be stupid for disagreeing". I never see anyone actually reading my posts. Also, typing on a smart phone is a b*tch so excuse the typos So this all I'll say in regards to the uncivility (I hope that's a word) that's being displayed in this thread now, lumping an entire group of people together is a foolish thing to do, and only contributes to hostility. This thread had great potential to open up discussions on different quality steels in different regions of the world, why some cultures stayed largely the same while other constantly changed, and how these things affected the traditional ways of sword making, but now it's unfortunately become, er less so.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 9, 2016 6:51:41 GMT
Well, this thread started out as in inquiry as to why European swords take less damage comparatively when used against a Japanese sword in testing. Or at least, different kinds of damage. While I recall seeing a fun video of somebody putting a huge set in an arming sword (like sharp bend of about 30 degrees), I see more pommels falling off (as threaded ends of tangs snap) and blades breaking than blades taking sets for Medieval European stuff.
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LeMal
Member
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Post by LeMal on Oct 9, 2016 7:19:27 GMT
A lot of cross-talk going on here.
There are certainly (at least!) two separate factors here. One being blade geometry (which itself has two factors in thickness and width). Then we have the steel in construction (which also actually encompasses multiple factors, depending on whether there's layering, the heat treatment, etc.)
Each of which should, properly, be examined separately. "All other things being equal..."
But my God, do we realise just how many concatenations there are? Even for the supposedly simpler, "less-changing" sword like the Japanese one, depending on time period, smith, school, and so on?
And that's just for the "usual" types, not even factoring in the outliers that always occur.
Yet here we are, locked in arguments over sweeping, universal statements, about countless examples over many centuries.
Kind of fitting, as those kind of arguments never end.
(Now, if you don't mind I'm going to go where the topic is less contentious. Like the validity of the decision in the Hendo-Bisping fight. Or politics. ;) )
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Post by althesmith on Oct 9, 2016 7:40:29 GMT
Have you ever seen / have you ever held a real traditional made antique Nihonto? They often are rather thin, much thinner than the contemporary swords usually known around here...i only point this out because it shows that the absolute knowledge isnt yours either. By the way, you have a serious attitude / temper problem...and i always thought i am bad at this...I actually have owned antique Nihonto for decades. The primary reason they tend to be thinner than contemporary blades is quite simply because they get repolished several times over their lifetimes, sometimes to repair battle damage, sometimes corrosion damage, but in any case a blade centuries old is going to be thinner than one decades old. "Craft of the Japanese Sword" touches on this aspect in a few places.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Oct 9, 2016 8:03:23 GMT
Nothing more to say, Mr. Chan! Cool cuts...especially that horizontal one with a more thrust-oriented longsword! By the way, who made that one? The one with the complex hilt? Tinker. Of course I changed the edge geometry to my preference. 40 degree total angle on this thrust and cut longsword.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Oct 9, 2016 8:07:48 GMT
The last cut I did with the tinker longsword was done with single leg standing, if you missed that part. ;)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2016 10:08:04 GMT
xD
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Oct 9, 2016 19:44:17 GMT
You can get a good idea how thick the (unshortened) antique Japanese sword was originally by checking the nakagogasane.
There have been pretty awesome studies where antique European swords were polished by Japanese polishers and the results are professionally documented and fascinating.
I think Timo said something well fitting about facts in either this or the other thread. Facts are good basis for discussion, as they eliminate error. Of course you might need to correct facts when better information and research comes available. On the other hand just presenting facts for discussion does not make really colorful and interesting discussion...
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 10, 2016 0:05:57 GMT
You can get a good idea how thick the (unshortened) antique Japanese sword was originally by checking the nakagogasane. There have been pretty awesome studies where antique European swords were polished by Japanese polishers and the results are professionally documented and fascinating. I think Timo said something well fitting about facts in either this or the other thread. Facts are good basis for discussion, as they eliminate error. Of course you might need to correct facts when better information and research comes available. On the other hand just presenting facts for discussion does not make really colorful and interesting discussion... Jussi, do you have any idea what the study was called/who made it? Really interested in seeing that.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Oct 10, 2016 1:46:33 GMT
Me too.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 10, 2016 2:11:49 GMT
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 10, 2016 5:14:42 GMT
Those teaser pics are so irritating. And it's a book. Too bad.
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