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Post by legacyofthesword on Oct 7, 2016 5:11:12 GMT
This is something that I've been wondering since I first got into swords. I really don't want to start a flame war or anything, but from what I've seen everyone on this forum has the maturity to discuss this in a reasonable way. This is something that gets talked about, argued about, and fought over all over the internet, but I'd like to take a shot at solving it once and for all.
From the countless videos of destruction tests and reviews I've watched and read, it seems that katanas, for the most part, get bent or chipped by use (and abuse) that doesn't do anywhere near the same amount of damage to a European sword. Why is this? All the videos and reviews I've seen use modern reproductions of both katanas and European swords. Is the market just flooded with shoddy knock-off katanas, and all the Euros out there are done with better steel and heat treatment? Is it the differential hardening that makes the katana more prone to bends and chips? I have a through hardened Dynasty Forge Musha katana that has taken everything I've thrown at it so far, without a chip, nick or bend one.
So, what's the score?
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 7, 2016 5:27:06 GMT
Differential hardening.
If you have a soft spine and a hard edge, the hard edge will want to snap earlier (I forget the term, something about torque and torsion I think). But the soft spine will prevent it from doing so and instead bend (and take a set). That's just how differential hardening works. That's because of the different steel structures involved. The edge of a katana is martensite, the hardest steel crystalline structure. But the back is retained austenite and/or perlite, which is much softer since it wasn't at all quenched.
This also means that the edge of a katana will chip more easily given their very high hardness levels (upper 50s/low 60s HRC) and hence brittleness.
Now for most Euros, you have a full spring tempering involved, wherein the blade is fully tempered martensite that's tempered back to around 50 HRC give or take. This results in the blade being much tougher when abused (tempered martensite is tougher than retained austenite/perlite). When you reach the snapping point, however, instead of just bending and taking a set, the blade will snap.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Oct 7, 2016 5:31:18 GMT
For the most part, Japanese weapons didn't move to the same uses that European swords did based on their styles of fighting and armor. This is due, if I remember correctly, to their relatively insular nature and history. Europeans were kind of all over the place, so they picked up a lot and adapted to new circumstances. Most modern Japanese sword reproductions are based on later period swords, which means that they aren't really based on the swords they used during their long history of warfare, rather their shorter history of peace and artistry. Earlier swords were larger for the most part, and much less adorned. War swords, not art swords.
Their construction(assuming it's DH) is such that damage would be confined to as small a space as possible. Hopefully the edge chips or folds, rather than have the blade snap. A chipped or bent sword can still be used, but a snapped sword is harder to fight with, especially if the blade is broke near the tsuba. While the spine may sometimes be thicker than the cross section of a Euro styled sword, there is less mass, depending on the style. TH Euro blades will have more flex than a DH katana, so the DH sword will likely take a set when swung against the Euro.
I can't help but think that a genuine, Koto-era war sword would fare a bit better than a Hanwei Practical Plus, hahaha. But you don't ever see handmade katana, based on a bigger, meaner war sword used in Katana vs. Euro! YouTube tests. It may not make a difference, as most popular European swords tend to be hardier, but it would be interesting.
And lastly, my katanaphile petulant cop-out: it's the warrior, not the sword!
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Post by scottw on Oct 7, 2016 7:22:54 GMT
What about TH katana blades? Like TH spring steel?
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 7, 2016 7:25:34 GMT
What about TH katana blades? Like TH spring steel? As attested to by most, they are extremely tough. Only difference with euros is edge geometry and thickness.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 7, 2016 7:48:22 GMT
What about TH katana blades? Like TH spring steel? Yes, but their curved shape and single edge geometry make them not springy. With TH you have not such a hard and durable edge like DH.
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Post by scottw on Oct 7, 2016 8:08:10 GMT
What about TH katana blades? Like TH spring steel? Yes, but their curved shape and single edge geometry make them not springy. With TH you have not such a hard and durable edge like DH. True maybe, but if it lasts through the fight, I can always get the belt sander out😄
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Oct 7, 2016 8:11:39 GMT
Actually if you make an Euro sword with historical steel and method, it won't be that much difference in taking a set than a katana. ;)
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 7, 2016 8:16:50 GMT
... a today made katana...
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Post by Google on Oct 7, 2016 8:34:09 GMT
Adding to what everyone said with personal experience- When my DH katana bends, i bend them back in 10 seconds over the knee and continue cutting like nothing happened. When a TH (both katana and antique saber) bends, it's a semprini to fix even a slight bend. Also, a harder edge keeps sharp longer, so you won't have to tire the blade by polishing it very often (that's removing material, after all).
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Post by scottw on Oct 7, 2016 8:56:57 GMT
Hmm. I need to consider that when I get my next katana. The destructive tests on TH katanas are impressive though.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 7, 2016 10:08:05 GMT
Consider the Hanwei Raptors for your big hands. My Shinogi Zukuri blade is a tank. They are usually criticized for having a too big tsuka.
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Post by scottw on Oct 7, 2016 11:12:38 GMT
The raptors look interesting. And they have great reviews. Yeah I need to try them, I may get their wakazashi.
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Post by nddave on Oct 7, 2016 22:54:48 GMT
To put it simply as possible, both were made with different jobs in mind. Medieval swords transitioned as a more primary war weapon, adapting and evolving to combat armour while katana stayed more or less the same, with fewer transitions due to it's secondary status as a war weapon.
A European sword evolved from a short single handed cut and thrust seconardy weapon, to a longer cut focused single handed primary weapon, to both a single and two handed cut and thrust variant, to a long thrust oreinted single hand variant and finally back to secondary weapon status shorter thrust oriented blades and military sabres. Excluding it's more cut focused design in the dark ages, the European sword has been primarily designed as a thrusting weapon with cutting being a more secondary for of attack. As such it's design has always required a more rigid but springy profile that would perform against the various armour it faced as the centuries went on. A sword the bent or took a set on the battlefield isn't going to do much thrusting through or between armor.
The katana though aside from a few profile variants pretty much stayed the same as it itself is a variant of the cut focused Dao of Chinese history. Since the Japanese never really invested in metal armour and what metal armor used was generally combated by the spear, the katana never had to transition as much as the European sword. Again the rule of thumb is opposite if the European sword because the katana's design and purpose benefits from taking a set more so than a European sword as edge retention is more beneficial to the cut focused katana.
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 7, 2016 23:18:56 GMT
I was made aware the DH had little to do with bending and more in the geometry and thickness. I do think that the different microstructres affect the momentt of inertia for the steel but ai could be wrong.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Oct 8, 2016 1:08:35 GMT
I was made aware the DH had little to do with bending and more in the geometry and thickness. I do think that the different microstructres affect the momentt of inertia for the steel but ai could be wrong. I think it probably all plays into it to some extent.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 8, 2016 1:24:13 GMT
Good answer! I just deleted an essay I started about the reasons for DH and TH for different use of a sword because I'm tired (3 a.m. here). (no joke, but Timo is so much better with this!) Edit: Short version: katana = slicing cut = hard durable edge = counterpart: thick soft spine for not breaking = DH longsword = beating cut = evenly spread, medium hard, very tough, springy blade = TH (hard durable edge + very tough blade = L6 bainite (as advertised))
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Oct 8, 2016 5:56:18 GMT
Sigh..... www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/01/21/razor-edged-3-comparing-metallurgy/take a look here. Euro Medieval swords do NOT have through hardening. They are crappy in metallurgy compare to modern metallurgy. So they DID bend a lot easier. Celtic swords used to have this problem facing Roman troops in their time. No, not because of usage difference or whatever. They DID bend way easier than their current version.
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 8, 2016 6:12:29 GMT
Sigh..... www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/01/21/razor-edged-3-comparing-metallurgy/take a look here. Euro Medieval swords do NOT have through hardening. They are crappy in metallurgy compare to modern metallurgy. So they DID bend a lot easier. Celtic swords used to have this problem facing Roman troops in their time. No, not because of usage difference or whatever. They DID bend way easier than their current version. Not all of them of course. Euro medievals ranged from unhardened iron to wonderful works of art like the Hariett Dean/Bashford Dean swords, the Svante, Munich, etc and dozens of other examples.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Oct 8, 2016 6:34:51 GMT
I mean one can't look at modern made Euro swords and then try to reverse-engineer explain that why they were superior in the past due to usage differences or what.
They were not superior in the past. Hell a lot weaker when you combine that crappy metallurgy with so thin a cross section. They just did not mind that. ;)
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