Length of handle for proper fit of a viking sword

These kinds of curved grips give a hybrid hammer-handshake grip. In hammer grip, the handle goes straight across the palm, while in handshake grip, it goes diagonally across the palm. A curved grip can be held so that the top half is in the handshake grip position, while the bottom part is in the hammer grip position. Functionally, it's much more like the handshake grip - the main "gripping" is between the base of the thumb and the bottom 3 fingers, the angle of the blade with respect to the hand and forearm is the same as for handshake grip with a straight hilt. What it shares with hammer grip is that the heel of the hand is behind the grip, not beside the grip.



Early single-handed jian was probably used with hammer grip, at least on the battlefield. Short sword, short grip, used with shield - think Roman gladius as an analog. Note that most specialist hammer-grip swords were used with shields. Without the shield, giving up reach by staying in hammer grip will get you killed. With a shield, you can get in close and deliver slicing draw cuts (or with short stabby swords, in-close thrusts).

Some modern jian explicitly teaches hammer grip as the proper way to hold the sword (most, if not all, that I've seen teach how to hold the sword in detail teach hammer grip). But for many techniques, they transition to handshake. As required to get the sword extended in line with the forearm. This hammer-to-handshake transition is very easy with the barrel-shaped jian grip. Some techniques - some blocks/parries, and some draw-cuts - are performed in hammer grip. Silver would approve.

VaaB - II agree that experience is a peerless teacher. I'm not sure where folks get the idea that teachers of formalized martial arts systems have no practical experience.

For several years, I studied an American Kenpo Karate system (that included knife techniques) under a sensei who, among other things, was a retired US Navy SEAL soldier and instructor. As a practice, I don't ask folks about their military service. From what I gathered, though, his actual practical experience, including with knives, was lengthy and very serious.

Even non-spec ops folks can have significant "real-world" fighting experience. Heck, the first life-threatening stabbing I ever witnessed was in middle school. No, that doesn't count as "experience" for me, but it sure did for the two students fighting.

The MA teachers and serious students I have met frequently sought out a formal system because of their practical experience.

Timo - I hadn't thought of a jian used with a shield. It makes perfect sense. I guess the Asian sword arts that have survived are mostly civilian (?) I haven't encountered anyone - in person or online - that discusses or teaches CMA or JMA sword with a shield. It also isn't represented in the (admittedly non-historical) movies that I have seen. I know that none of that even remotely qualifies as scholarly. Honestly, I'm a little disappointed in myself for not imagining Chinese swordsmen with shields.

Of course, Vikings are regularly portrayed as taking shields into battle.

Shield and dao is still taught. Often with a short dao, but sometimes a long dao.



A wushu example:


Some instructional resources:
www.wle.com/products/VHG20.html
chineselongsword.com/shieldtranslation.shtml

And, if you want a shield:
www.wle.com/products/RattanShield.html

Dao and shield was used up to the end of the traditional Qing army (tigermen, militia). As for jian and shield, you're much less likely to find that in Medieval and later China. Still, we have Ming examples:

and it was used by 19th century militia (though shield and dao is much more common in photos).

When in doubt: use the hybrid grip.

But yea, I think I agree with that guys mind set. Fast, aggressive kills. This is why I doubt myself against very aggressive people. Unless they are stupid, distracted or intoxicated, I would have to rely on dirty tricks and surroundings to boost my chances

Not sure why it would seem very weak. It should be plenty strong enough. Can you describe how you think the handshake grip works?

As I explain it, hilt at about 30-45 degrees across the palm, most of the gripping force comes from the bottom 3 fingers and the base of the thumb. Index finger and thumb should be somewhat relaxed. If a person's hammer grip is strong, shifting the hilt from straight across the palm to 30-45 degrees across should still result in a strong grip.

Weak or not, we are told

and

That is, we told by more than one skilled fighter to use handshake grip.

It's not like this hasn't been studied extensively in kinesiology, occupational therapy and medicine.

ajot.aota.org/data/Journals/AJOT/930134/212.pdf

With the consensus being... there's no consensus. :P

Vary shoulder and elbow position and your grip strength results can be all over the map. Constrain or don't constrain the wrist, they vary. From person to person, with these parameters, they widely vary.

(Not surprising. As with anything regarding human performance, as the old saying goes in Education, "you teach who you are." People still argue whether a quarterback should run around like a Michael Vick or stand still in the pocket like a Dan Marino. Whether a goalie should stay up like a Ken Dryden or flop like a Tony Esposito--which was decried as "wrong" when I was a kid, but now most everybody does. Sheesh.)

(And don't even get me started on the "wrong" beauty of Kirby Puckett terrorizing pitchers getting hits off of stuff way outside the strike zone. ;) )

But then I've been rolling my eyes for a long time on the sword community overthinking things. You know, moment-of-inertia matching on your golf clubs is all the rage in some circles right now (uh, can it be because people who can pay for expensive clubs and/or new sets give themselves a feeling of procedural knowledge superiority that way?) ... Aaaaand some solid studies are showing that's exactly what you DON'T want to do, as not only do most good golfers naturally and intuitively make any club head adjustments necessary, they don't when clubs are "MOI" matched rather than just swing-weight matched. (And even swing-weight matching can be wildly overrated--or even counter-productive--for some adept golfers.)

The upshot is, in human performance--ESPECIALLY competitive human performance, and more especially in competitive human performance head-to-head against resisting opponents (as the late great catch-wrestler Billy Robinson said, "human chess") ... whatever works, works.

And if you want to know if it works for you, it's pretty simple. Try it out.

What scottw said about his hands in another thread means that he has no alternative to a handshake on a nornal viking sword anyway.
Only on one of those famous 13th Warrior twohanders.

I think the hammer grip is fantastic for drawing cuts and I seem to have much better control. If I'm swinging indoors, the hammer grip is a must. But I admittedly do have a much better reach if I use the handshake grip.

I might hold my opinion on the "alternating hand grip" that depends on circumstance.

One day, if I ever find a group to spar with again, I'll be able to test these. But sparring it still only sparring. And a duel is only a duel. A fight is another beast, and I can't think of any sane reason to get in one, and one f*ck up or miscalculation could be an end

I'll have to try it then, Timo. The only experience I have is from bowie knives, to date. My swords will be here very soon though and I'll be trying it out. I'm smart enough to know that practical experience trumps theories:) I appreciate the advice. As far as tightening up and using too much power, the same thing applies to punching, so it makes sense.