Length of handle for proper fit of a viking sword

Yes. I'd aim for a snug fit - a little bit tight - rather than a loose fit.

US adult male palm breadth, as measured in 1991 by the US Army, is about 9cm (caliper measurement, median of 9.02cm, mean of 9.04cm). For a pommel and guard with a flat inner surface, this should be a good grip length (for pommels and guards that curve away from the grip, a little shorter is good). Compare with historical grip lengths: weapon.wiglaf.co.uk/biglist.php

Hammer grip is well-suited for fighting with a shield, using close-range draw cuts. For fighting at the extreme of your reach, handshake grip rules.

There's also a point of logic: art showing hammer grip only shows that hammer grip was used, not that handshake grip wasn't used.

I don't recall any contemporary art showing Viking swords held in a handshake grip, but there are very clear examples of brazil nut pommel swords, which will behave not-too-differently from Viking swords, being used in handshake grip. Also wheel pommel swords, messers, and more, including some illustrations from fight books where they might be more likely to get such details right.

There are living sword fighting traditions where handshake grip is used (also some where hammer grip is used).

There's plenty of evidence that hammer grip was used. There's also plenty of evidence that handshake grip was used. Modern folk can use both grips successfully for sparring and cutting, so there's no obvious reason why our ancestors shouldn't have been able to successfully use both.

Hey thanks for all of the great info. Especially liked the site timo put up. On the handshake grip... I think some people take it too literally there are so many factors involved, type of sword, weight of sword, pommel type etc etc. To me you would have to hook your thumb and middle or ring finger around pommel for it to be effective, otherwise your gonna loose the sword. Then again that is not really a handshake. I believe the different grips are all part of a transition from quick cut to power cut. Then again I'm no expert.

Yup, Brenno nails it. But it's not only an important matter for viking swords, it goes for medieval single handers as well. There too it usually is best to have the pinky nestling the base of the pommel. As so:



Note that finger sizes plays a big role in how the pommel, especially if it has a hollow ground section, needs to be shaped. The way it is on that sword it fits my hand perfectly but as I found out when sending it out for a review, some people have bigger fingers, lol... seems obvious, of course, but still needs to be kept in mind. That doesn't mean the handle size should be increased much though it can for someone with huge hands. In general I consider 9cm a good "all-rounder" on high medieval swords, potentially a bit shorter (8-9cm) on viking stuff.

Roland Warzecha has done several videos and drawings on how to grip a sword, I recommend them.

Steering the sword with the pommel is immensely helpful and it's a shame so very few even high end (production) swords on the market get the grip length right (Albion does, not sure of A&A).

Also, small side not: ignore anything Bill Blake says, the guy's a nut-job with a particular hate for Peter Johnsson and Albion.

I don't care for some of this guys view points, but it's really hard to argue against this article. Especially after reading the knife fighting PDF. To anyone whose ever been attacked by a person with a knife, you might find the points valid. And I mean attacked, not a sparring match.

Points to consider for sure.

I think it's very easy to argue against his points. He says that the handshake grip is a modern invention. But it appears in ancient Greek art, Medieval European and Persian art, early modern Chinese art. Silver says to use it (which is pretty funny, considering he talks about Silver in his article). He also says to use hammer grip, as appropriate - Silver doesn't believe in a One True Grip. Musashi says to use it. This seems to me to be very convincing evidence against his first main point. Handshake grip was also used for European military sabre in the 19th century (also hammer grip, and also "sabre grip", basically handshake grip but with thumb extended along the grip), but I'm not sure whether that should be considered "modern invention" or not.

His second point is that handshake grip is insecure. I'd agree that it's less secure than hammer grip, but not that it's insecure. I find it sufficiently secure. Perhaps he doesn't. Why trust modern sword enthusiasts, martial artists, and reenactors? Was it used by people who used swords in real fights? As per argument against point 1 above, yes. That should be the end of the argument. But since he writes about modern soldiers and criminals and what they recommend, consider Fairbairn (soldier, policeman, and real-life experience in knife fights), who used a grip like a foil fencing grip (not handshake, but not hammer either), which is even less secure. If a grip less secure than handshake grip is good enough for people with real-life experience, then handshake grip should be secure enough.



Pentecost says to use a grip with the thumb wrapped around the hilt, not along the hilt. "Wrapped around the hilt" describes both hammer grip and handshake grip. "Thumb wrapped around the hilt" is the advice given in 19th century sabre manuals, for a heavy sword (like a military sabre). This is sound advice, but irrelevant to discussion of existence/utility of handshake grip.

Also, I remember actually seeing a grip that resembled the hand shake grip in medieval art, immediately after finding myself almost agreeing with him.

It was being used in a thrust from horseback, which made perfect sense, as that's usually when you would want reach, I imagine.

When it comes to standard knife fights, however, over extending would be dangerous. One little jab wouldn't do much to take down a person. Most people continue fighting after being stabbed.

To add a novice point of view...

The OP refers to Viking sword design and use, of which I have zero experience. However, the thread also discusses the historical use and usefulness of grips other than the hammer grip.

Both my Hanwei oxtail dao and my TFW dan dao have downward curved/recurved hilts. While it's possible to hold either with a hammer grip, doing so is pretty awkward because it creates a bit of a gap between the grip and lower palm (pommel end). In a handshake or handshake-like grip, the hilt settles firmly along the length of the palm and pushes the grip into the palm during a smart cut. It is a very secure grip.

I don't know if the Chinese oxtail design would be considered a "modern" development.

As for actual fighting with a sword or a knife, the linked post seems to kinda ignore that swords and knives cut. Fighting with a cutting weapon (i.e., other than a stabbing-only fencing foil or prison shank) rewards finesse as much as power.

My understanding is that the jian (straight double-edged one hand sword) predates the use of the saber/dao in Chinese military use. The current Chinese sword training tradition may or may not reach back into history that far, but sword techniques based on finesse and subtlety (i.e., "fencing") would seem to, even in the military setting. It seems unlikely that a hammer grip would've been used on the jian, but even if it was, I think dismissing "fencing" techniques (and the necessarily associated grips) as being solely a modern ineffective ahistorical confection is unwarranted.

With respect, the knife fighting PDF seems to be written by someone who has survived a number of knife fights, but has not actually studied and practiced a formalized and complete martial arts system, or has only been exposed to novice level practitioners.

mtc