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Post by fredqc on Jul 11, 2016 1:17:57 GMT
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 11, 2016 1:30:40 GMT
Hi: That is an original. Most of the original swords were manufactured at the Springfield Ordnance Arsenal. In 1918 the War Department decided to make a restock bulk purchase for future use. To supplement Springfield's output the Landers, Frary and Clark appliance company of Hartford got the bid to manufacture 15,000 swords under Springfield Arsenal supervision. These swords were accepted in 1918-1919.
LFC swords don't have the same collector interest as the SAs. Usually you can get them about 20% cheaper. There really isn't much difference. Looks good in the pics. Missing the large leather washer from Rock Island Arsenal (you can make your own). 1913 sword knot replicas are available from What Price Glory.
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Post by fredqc on Jul 11, 2016 3:09:53 GMT
Thanks! What could be the value of this sword?
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 11, 2016 8:33:48 GMT
Thanks! What could be the value of this sword? There are variables and the market appears soft right now. Ball park around 475.00. |
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Post by bfoo2 on Jul 12, 2016 5:51:15 GMT
fredqc : if that's the listing I'm thinking of, the dealer is in Canada. Be aware that there *might* be a work stoppage with out national postage carrier (Canada Post), which could impact the arrival. FedEx and UPS will be unaffected. It looks good. I woulda gotten it if I didn't already have one  Also, does anyone know about the weird plastic/paint looking coating on the scabbard? I thought these were supposed to be drab fabric...
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 12, 2016 6:08:21 GMT
fredqc : if that's the listing I'm thinking of, the dealer is in Canada. Be aware that there *might* be a work stoppage with out national postage carrier (Canada Post), which could impact the arrival. FedEx and UPS will be unaffected. It looks good. I woulda gotten it if I didn't already have one :p Also, does anyone know about the weird plastic/paint looking coating on the scabbard? I thought these were supposed to be drab fabric... Two possibilites: Not uncommon to see preservation coatings of paint on inservice weapons. or, a collector doing the wrong thing to return his piece to an expected hue. There is a dearth of M1913 out there at the moment. Only saw 3 LF&C swords with two rather over priced. Get cycles like this. Spend too much on an LF&C and you'll never get your money back. |
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Post by paulrward on Jul 13, 2016 3:02:01 GMT
Hello Mr. Fredqc ;
Could you give us a link to the auction / sale, or post a photo ( not from photobucket ! ) on the
site - Maybe I can give you some tips
Respectfully ;
Paul R. Ward
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 13, 2016 8:54:05 GMT
Hello Mr. Fredqc ; Could you give us a link to the auction / sale, or post a photo ( not from photobucket ! ) on the site - Maybe I can give you some tips Respectfully ; Paul R. Ward On ebay Paul. There are only 3 LF&Cs on the site at the moment. It's the 550.00. |
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Post by paulrward on Jul 13, 2016 21:16:19 GMT
Hello All; ( and, to Mr. Kelly, many thanks for the link ! )
To Mr. Fredqc: Here are my $ 0.02: Looking at the pictures, what we have is an L.F.& C., dated 1918, with inspector's stamp and scabbard. The condition of the Bell Guard is excellent, with no signs of ever having been bent or crushed, and there are no significant scratches on the finish of the bell. Looking at the end screw that goes through the pommel of the hilt, the head of the screw is perfect. In my opinion, this sword has NEVER been disassembled. In addition, we have the as-issued Leather Scabbard Bumper, in place, with no signs of damage, and only some signs of having been over oiled with neets-foot oil.
Moving on to the blade, we can see no signs of either rust or pitting in any of the photos, and, at the forte of the blade, we can see traces of dried brown cosmoline. There are no chips or dings in the blade, meaning that it apparently was never used to chop up milk bottles or watermellons, or similar forms of foolishness. All four edges of the blade still have the original LF&C grind visible on them, and, if you look at the tip, you will note that it still has the triangular outline of a new M1913, with no signs of rounding due to sharpening or polishing. In effect, what we have here is a blade, as manufactured, with nothing being done to it, exactly as it came from the factory in 1918.
As for the Scabbard, which, in the case of many M1913s, is missing, here we have a scabbard with cloth covering that is untorn and shows no signs of fraying. It does not appear to have ever been painted, leaded or even oiled. The metal parts of the scabbard have been painted with a olive drab linseed oil paint that is chipping and flaking in spots. This is normal for this type of paint, as it was not intended for use on metal in the first place. Down at the tip of the scabbard is a slight staining, but this might be removable with soap and water.
Now for the ugly word: 'Collectibility' : It is true that military collectors seem to prefer the earlier Springfield Armorys over the later LF&Cs. But, here are a few factoids: The Springfields were made from tempered Carbon Steel. The LF&Cs were made from Carbon Steel with a trace of Silicon added. In effect, they were made from Spring Steel. They hold an edge just as well, but are more flexible, will resist taking a 'set' if bent, and are much better to fence with. They resist breakage better, and, all in all, an LF&C is a better WEAPON than one of the Springfields. My own personal sword that I have relied upon as a weapon is an LF&C, and I have NEVER had a iota of nervousness about it's ability to do it's job if I did mine.
And lastly, the price: $ 550.00 U.S. Dollars. I got my LF&C back in the 1970s. Gasoline was $ 0.75 per gallon, and I paid $ 200.00 for it. Gas is now over $ 2.00 per gallon, or about three times as much. And this LF&C is $ 550.00. Or just slightly less than three times as much.
Frankly, I don't think you will ever see a nicer condition, more battleworthy M1913. And, if it seems to be a little pricey, step back for a moment, and ask yourself: " If I found myself in a desperate situation where I REALLY needed this weapon, and I didn't have it, how much would I be willing to pay for it ? "
Respectfully ;
Paul R. Ward
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 14, 2016 3:18:28 GMT
Pics just because: Have rotated thru a number of Pattons over time. I don't have a Windlass any more. Never objected to the Windlass; just don't have any room. Do have 4 originals:    Right to left order: My LF&C a 4 star sword with original RIA washer. 1918 issue. Bought this without a scabbard and wound up scavaging a WIndlass scabbard for carry and display. The Windlass scabbard's quality was never great, and corners are being cut. But they are expedient while trying to find a real scabbard. The second Patton on the left is a Springfield Arsenal 1913 issue with a registry # of 3389. General condition is near fine. Had to make my own leather washer. I did find a scabbard on the open market. This substantially upped the pay off for this sword.  The right sword is an Springfield Arsenal register num 836! One of the first batch 1200. The grip screws on these were placed opposite direction in later production. Original scabbard. The pickett post nail head was removed. RIA original washer is in place. Last is a VG- dress Patton (nickle plated). Springfield Arsenal registration num 31938. Sword was purchased w/o a scabbard. Obtained scabbard seperately. Found out after receipt that there was no throatpiece. Sword knots: As I've mentioned elsewhere, the krill looking knot is the official 1913 type. The more robust knot is a 1885 based cav service knot that looks very handsome on the Patton and has application to a lot of late period Euro cav sabers. Both of these were obtained from What Price Glory. At 25.00 a pop they are a real bargain. |
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Post by Turok on Jul 14, 2016 6:27:03 GMT
Thanks for sharing those pictures and nice looking swords, Dave Kelly!
Is the nickel plated Patton a ceremonial sword or was it issued to officers? I've never seen that before.
Also what does the markings on the Windlass Patton replica look like? I can't find a clear picture on Google and I don't want to get duped.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jul 14, 2016 11:49:52 GMT
Thanks for sharing those pictures and nice looking swords, Dave Kelly! Is the nickel plated Patton a ceremonial sword or was it issued to officers? I've never seen that before. Also what does the markings on the Windlass Patton replica look like? I can't find a clear picture on Google and I don't want to get duped. Answer is both. There is a photo of Patton holding one, wearing his mess blues. Also used by color guards. They are hard to find. In nine years I've seen about seven. Lost bids on two of them. Found this one at an antiques dealers. The Windlass has no markings. Just a ubiquitous Windlass sticker on the ricasso. KoA sells them off their Windlass page. Atlanta Cutlery (adjunct of MRL sells them also. The SBGWEB discount is accepted there also.) Deepeeka also distributes the Patton. I've never held the Deepeeka. May come from the same forge, but I don't really trust Deepeeka for swords. |
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Post by fredqc on Jul 14, 2016 20:08:01 GMT
Thanks again for the info. Unfortunately, the sword was sold before i have been able to buy it. I have contacted the seller to get more information about it last week and i didnt get an answer, that is why i found this forum.
The store that was selling this sword is (in my opinion) often overpriced and the sword had a very honest price, thats why was not sure if it was a reproduction or an original. Too bad i missed this good deal (400$ cdn$) but i learn a lot of interesting stuff about patton sword.
Thanks again for you help, Fred
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