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Post by Jussi Ekholm on May 15, 2016 13:15:07 GMT
I was replying to the thread Lukas started about pricing and I found myself going further off the point of that thread in my thoughts. So I decided it would be smart to start a new one.
It takes time that new collectors/users start to understand the finer qualities of custom swords. You must also consider that not every sword will fit every person. I'm just putting this out as a note as sometimes I think that people tend to think that good smiths make only amazing swords that feel just right for everyone. Sometimes tastes vary and people prefer quite different swords. This was also true historically. Even though I am not an martial artist I can still know quite a bit about differences of feel in swords. For example I hear people shouting often in the Internet that katana are amazing to handle and very agile good swords. Truth is, some are some aren't. What I'm trying to say here is also that people shouldn't judge a smith by one sword. Quality is an overall factor that can be seen through out the work but feel is dependant on each particular piece.
Here are in my mind two good examples how great quality work does not actually turn into amazing sword.
1. I haven't really owned many higher end longswords, and I haven't practiced any historical martial arts. However I felt that Albion Baron that I owned was an amazing sword. I liked length, design the feel, pretty much everything about it. Until... I noticed that when I was using it a lot the pommel started to be quite uncomfortable if I was grabbing it. The person who traded the sword to me was a HEMA practicioner and told me that the pommel will be really hard to your hand, and I didn't understand it back then. Of course the design is very popular historically so maybe grasping this type of pommel was historically wrong for the period, I don't know as Iäm not HEMA guy and maybe their group practiced a sword style this particular sword was not really fitting for.
2. I was looking a friends large collection of Japanese swords yesterday. We documented together every sword he has and it was an amazing day. As he is one of the most known martial arts teachers in Finland it's always a pleasure to hear his insight on the feel & usability part. The example for point of view now... He has a greatly shortened blade from 1300's and the sword has high quality fittings, produced by fittings artisan living in 1800's. While we agreed that fittings are great he casually noted that the kashira is horrible from user view, as it would be very rough for hand when the sword is used. In swordsmanship styles he practices kashira like that would be a horrible choice.
I kind of started this thread as sometimes I feel that we might generalize things bit too much. We tend to have a notion that everything by something is great for everyone, and where some companies only make bad things. I am trying to point out that something is not a great sword to someone just because it's made by some company.
In personal view I owned a Kaneie, which are usually held in high regard but I hated how it felt. It was not a good sword for me even though the overall quality of sword was good. I've only get a chance to own 2 Albions from their lineup (100+ models) and play with few others for few minutes. The Vigil felt the be absolutely perfect sword for me, I hope I can some day have one of those again. The Baron felt like it was not my sword after initial love for it. Both were great quality and fit & finish, no complaints there.
I guess the bottom line that I am trying to say here is that the sword is not a great sword for you because someone in particular made it but because of the reason it fits you very well.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on May 15, 2016 13:43:22 GMT
Very true. Swords are a very personal and subjective thing. Quality itself isn't (as much anyway) but personal preferences can make the difference between "omg I love that sword" and "I guess it's nicely enough made but eh...".
It is important to realize that. This is exactly where custom makers offer their service. They can make a sword exactly to a customer's preferences. However, not every maker is for everybody, there again, one needs to look for what fits with the own ideas. That's why I think it is immensely important as a maker to make clear what the own style and goals are. Customer and maker need to be absolutely on the same page, otherwise disappointment is just waiting to happen. And at the price level we're talking, nobody wants that.
As an aside: I've before heard the argument "I'd love to have a high end custom sword but I'd rather invest into antiques". That's a perfectly valid point of view. In my experience, the people who do that are often not so much interested in the martial art behind the sword but more fascinated by its character as an historical artifact. The feeling of something so old with its own history and stories to tell is something no modern custom sword, no matter the quality, can give you. My only original is an 1822 french saber and I really like to imagine what it might have all seen or what stories it could tell... and that thing is not even 150 years old. Holding a sword from the 13th century in hand really makes you seem insignificant and you wonder what will be left of you after a comparably long period of time.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2016 14:12:14 GMT
When someone is producing swords at a certain price point, there should be an implicit understanding that when the check clears and the crate is open, you have a good sword in your hands. Whether it is in line with your preferences is another matter altogether. Before making a large purchase, people should have a good idea of what they want and ideally a level of confidence that the artist can execute that particular type.
If you're making speculative purchases, you kind of incur a level of risk. I'm sure I could drop 2 or 3 thousand and get not just a great rapier, but a phenomenal one. It would be a good idea to do my research on them and sort out if I have a preference before I start throwing money around and end up with a great example of something I discover I hate, though.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 15, 2016 20:26:16 GMT
As an aside: I've before heard the argument "I'd love to have a high end custom sword but I'd rather invest into antiques". That's a perfectly valid point of view. In my experience, the people who do that are often not so much interested in the martial art behind the sword but more fascinated by its character as an historical artifact. I buy antiques out of martial arts interest. Going antique guarantees you get something that handles like the real thing, with proper weight, balance, and style of grip for the type (if you get a typical sword of the type). Often cheaper than the available acceptable production replicas of the type (which are often not so authentic). Antiques for MA are not unusual in Japanese swords and Chinese swords. Less common in HEMA because (a) Medieval antique swords in usable condition are expensive, and (b) emphasis on sparring means you want swords made for sparring. Still, the poor quality of sabre replicas gets people to buy antiques for MA. But buying for MA interest would only move into custom if you really wanted a particular type for which there were no acceptable production replicas and antiques were very expensive, or you combined MA interests with the usual high-end custom motives. Antiques as investment is a different story.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on May 15, 2016 21:31:18 GMT
As an aside: I've before heard the argument "I'd love to have a high end custom sword but I'd rather invest into antiques". That's a perfectly valid point of view. In my experience, the people who do that are often not so much interested in the martial art behind the sword but more fascinated by its character as an historical artifact. I buy antiques out of martial arts interest. Going antique guarantees you get something that handles like the real thing, with proper weight, balance, and style of grip for the type (if you get a typical sword of the type). Often cheaper than the available acceptable production replicas of the type (which are often not so authentic). Antiques for MA are not unusual in Japanese swords and Chinese swords. Less common in HEMA because (a) Medieval antique swords in usable condition are expensive, and (b) emphasis on sparring means you want swords made for sparring. Still, the poor quality of sabre replicas gets people to buy antiques for MA. But buying for MA interest would only move into custom if you really wanted a particular type for which there were no acceptable production replicas and antiques were very expensive, or you combined MA interests with the usual high-end custom motives. Antiques as investment is a different story. Yeah, good point. I tend to forget to think of modern/asian martial arts where antiques are the sensible thing to buy for MA interest. Which is rather stupid of me because I myself have an original French 1822 that I really like and I know there's now way of buying a replica that performs similarly... I was thinking mainly medieval European weaponry. The originals that exist are very expensive and (generally) not in usable condition. You might wave them around carefully to get a feel for them but I have rarely heard of people doing drills or such with an antique longsword (I have seen a vid or one but it's a rare occurrence). Let alone cutting or free play. So for those people into HEMA and wanting a faithful replica of a specific sword, custom makers are the way to go. Or the Albion Museum line if that specific sword happens to be the Brescia Spadona ;)
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Post by johnbu on May 16, 2016 0:57:37 GMT
Also the physical size of the people (especially the Japanese) from 2,3,400 years ago were VERY much smaller than a typical man today. How unusual would it be to have a 300 year old katana custom made for a 5ft tall samurai be a perfect fit for a 6ft tall westerner?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 16, 2016 2:12:35 GMT
One solution would be to get a katana that had been made for a tall samurai, rather than for a short samurai. Should only be a big issue if you want to have the longest possible katana you can draw with sufficient ease - having a sword shorter than that won't make it unusable, or even uncomfortable.
(Average adult male height in Japan in the 18th century: 5'4"; England: 5'5"; southern China: 5'4.5". Typically, peasants are shorter than upper class warriors, so expect the average samurai to be taller than the average adult male.)
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 2:23:57 GMT
Also the physical size of the people (especially the Japanese) from 2,3,400 years ago were VERY much smaller than a typical man today. How unusual would it be to have a 300 year old katana custom made for a 5ft tall samurai be a perfect fit for a 6ft tall westerner? Some based weaponry off of your body, others just had a set length where they don't care how tall you are or how long your arms are, everyone uses the same thing. Most likely you used whatever someone gave you, and by the time you can afford your own you're already used to something. Depending on what you were doing it may or may not matter. From a historical standpoint, they didn't seem to think twice about shortening their swords if they needed it to either fit better or just due to the current fashion. I did see a video just today of Mr. Schneyer using an (absolutely gorgeous) antique longsword that was filmed a few years ago. It is unfortunate that it is so rare and risky to use these. It has to be a difficult decision when holding something difficult if not impossible to replace. I think it can only benefit people who are serious about their studies to get as close as possible to antique or modern made weapons that mirror as closely as they can the originals. If you already know what you want, great, but exposure to "the real thing" (or at least getting as close as you can) can give a valuable context that will hopefully have some influence in shaping a person's preference.
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Post by Croccifixio on May 16, 2016 2:39:18 GMT
A tangential point: A sword of great quality, while not for you, retains its intrinsic quality. There are those who value this specific aspect of the sword. If for example I was not a fan of katanas, I can still appreciate (and value) the quality of blades made in Japan vs Chinatanas. I can appreciate the quality of an Albion over a Hanwei. I can appreciate the quality of a Patrick Barta over the quality of a lesser custom smith, even if Patrick's sword might not really be for me.
Hence, when I make recommendations (say someone's asking what katana to buy) based on someone's budget, I will base it on the known quality of the sword. A more detailed description would lead to more nuance, and sometimes I might recommend someone to go under their budget or over depending on what exactly they want. Say, he wants a tough beater within $300. I could recommend a Hanwei Raptor. But then he gives a description that points more towards a Fei Long sword that's $200 higher. Then I'd tell him to go for that. But say he lives somewhere with expensive shipping and can only really afford a sword worth less than $200. Then I might recommend something else like a Musashi. But then he gives so many details and so many requirements that he actually really wants a Howard Clark L6 bainite...
That's why I'd like to emphasize what Jussi said:
Sometimes people say they want a sword of X quality but what they really mean is they want a sword with X feel, and we should be sensitive to that as ones with more experience in this hobby.
At the same time, we should never discount the quality of a known brand/smith. For instance, when someone says their Albion performed just as well in cutting as their Hanwei Tinker and that the extra $800 is not worth it, we can gently remind them of the thousands of other factors they might have missed in giving their opinion. It's fine to say you like a cheaper piece more than an expensive one (hello DSA), but we can't trash a brand simply because we're confusing quality with feel/personal preference.
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addertooth
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Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
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Post by addertooth on May 18, 2016 13:18:27 GMT
To take the original point made by Jussi, but with a twist, sometimes an awful sword can just feel right. The worst (visually) katana in my collection, physically performs some tasks much better than other superior swords. The smith put way too much distal taper in the blade (and abruptly tapered it mid-blade as well). But it has a feather-light and agile feel which none of the properly made swords can match. For light targets, it cuts with less effort and more cleanly than any of the other swords. It also has the nicest Tachi Kaze (sword wind) of any other of the swords.
For heavy cutting, my second least desirable sword (Raptor) is hard to beat. The Raptor was purchased in a "scratch and dent" sale, so it was not expected to be a beauty queen.
A couple of my prettiest Katana swords, which are closest to the mark as good looking swords, which the fittings are better and the blade geometry is closest to correct, may never be used to actually cut anything. Perhaps it is the curse of visually ideal swords, they tend to get used less for actual cutting. I know two of them with a good Hazuya finish gives me a pause when I consider cutting with them, it is a real hassle to re-finish them should they become scuffed.
Now, if the use of the sword was "for the money", yes, I would reach for the best and cry about the scuffs afterwards. There are swords we use (and sometimes beat), and swords we admire. It is a shame that a really nice sword can frequently end up being used less.
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Post by jammer on Jun 20, 2016 19:21:14 GMT
I was replying to the thread Lukas started about pricing and I found myself going further off the point of that thread in my thoughts. So I decided it would be smart to start a new one. It takes time that new collectors/users start to understand the finer qualities of custom swords. You must also consider that not every sword will fit every person. I'm just putting this out as a note as sometimes I think that people tend to think that good smiths make only amazing swords that feel just right for everyone. Sometimes tastes vary and people prefer quite different swords. This was also true historically. Even though I am not an martial artist I can still know quite a bit about differences of feel in swords. For example I hear people shouting often in the Internet that katana are amazing to handle and very agile good swords. Truth is, some are some aren't. What I'm trying to say here is also that people shouldn't judge a smith by one sword. Quality is an overall factor that can be seen through out the work but feel is dependant on each particular piece. Here are in my mind two good examples how great quality work does not actually turn into amazing sword. 1. I haven't really owned many higher end longswords, and I haven't practiced any historical martial arts. However I felt that Albion Baron that I owned was an amazing sword. I liked length, design the feel, pretty much everything about it. Until... I noticed that when I was using it a lot the pommel started to be quite uncomfortable if I was grabbing it. The person who traded the sword to me was a HEMA practicioner and told me that the pommel will be really hard to your hand, and I didn't understand it back then. Of course the design is very popular historically so maybe grasping this type of pommel was historically wrong for the period, I don't know as Iäm not HEMA guy and maybe their group practiced a sword style this particular sword was not really fitting for. 2. I was looking a friends large collection of Japanese swords yesterday. We documented together every sword he has and it was an amazing day. As he is one of the most known martial arts teachers in Finland it's always a pleasure to hear his insight on the feel & usability part. The example for point of view now... He has a greatly shortened blade from 1300's and the sword has high quality fittings, produced by fittings artisan living in 1800's. While we agreed that fittings are great he casually noted that the kashira is horrible from user view, as it would be very rough for hand when the sword is used. In swordsmanship styles he practices kashira like that would be a horrible choice. I kind of started this thread as sometimes I feel that we might generalize things bit too much. We tend to have a notion that everything by something is great for everyone, and where some companies only make bad things. I am trying to point out that something is not a great sword to someone just because it's made by some company. In personal view I owned a Kaneie, which are usually held in high regard but I hated how it felt. It was not a good sword for me even though the overall quality of sword was good. I've only get a chance to own 2 Albions from their lineup (100+ models) and play with few others for few minutes. The Vigil felt the be absolutely perfect sword for me, I hope I can some day have one of those again. The Baron felt like it was not my sword after initial love for it. Both were great quality and fit & finish, no complaints there. I guess the bottom line that I am trying to say here is that the sword is not a great sword for you because someone in particular made it but because of the reason it fits you very well. Hello jussi, I wonder if we know the same person in your paragraph 2. I have trained with the Finnish HNIR group at seminars, and they are led by a diminutive and highly skilled sensei, with a penchant for nihonto.
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Post by jammer on Jun 20, 2016 19:59:32 GMT
I agree with jussi, I would add that an everyday katana (basically an iaito) tends to be lighter with a bo hi, and they tend to be longer. They are matched to the maximum draw length of the particular wearer. They are not expected to get a large amount of use. Basically analogous to a rapier. The primary weapon of a civil state samurai bearer. His first resort.
A war katana is definitely shorter, as WW adaptions show, no hi, heavier and matched to be a secondary, or even lesser, drawn weapon. The last resort of an at-war samurai bearer.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jun 21, 2016 17:52:08 GMT
Quite likely the same person as I think there are only 2 sensei in Finland who have license to teach HNIR and both are in our nihonto group.
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Post by jammer on Jun 25, 2016 15:06:51 GMT
Quite likely the same person as I think there are only 2 sensei in Finland who have license to teach HNIR and both are in our nihonto group. You have an embarrassment of riches Jussi!
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Jun 25, 2016 17:40:08 GMT
Very good thread Jussi Ekholm... I tend to agree with most of what's been already said. I also have a couple of antiques, but mainly modern pieces for training, etc. I do use my Enpo era nihonto for kata, and have cut tatami with it once, but won't do tameshigiri with it again. Kata on the other hand is something else, and don't see anything wrong with that. I think all of you hit the nail on the head when it comes to "feel" vs "maker" - what feels good to someone might feel totally wrong to someone else. Thanks again for the thread - very interesting read from you all.
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