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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2008 0:22:56 GMT
G'day everybody, I have a question for you all. I would like some advice regarding researching sword purchases. I know there is loads of tetxs out there on types of swords etc....especially done by Wilkinson. I have acquired some of these but they haven't really helped me. I am wanting to find out information about individual sword makers/firms. eg. Buckmaster & Co of London. If you have a serial number how would you find out when it was made, who it was sold to especially if the firm no longer exists (well I presume it doesn't exist anymore). Is there a place that stores this type of information? Thanks in advance Cam
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2008 1:17:09 GMT
Wilkinson is the only British sword company from the 19th century whose sales ledgers still exist. They are owned by Richard Milner of www.armsresearch.co.uk, and for a fee he will look up the sales information that corresponds with the serial numbers on Wilkinson swords. Not every entry will lead you directly to the original owner, but your chances are quite good that it will. There is a bit more of a gamble involved if the sword was purchased between 1914-1917 as the ledgers are often incomplete. If the sword is from a different retailer or maker, the serial number will only be useful for assigning an approximate date to the sword. OldSwords.com has an excellent database of makers including serial numbers and the approximate dates associated with the numbers. There is a $10 annual fee for this part of the site (which is otherwise free, but requires users to register). However, if a sword has the owner's name or initials one can still find a match, or several likely matches. Do you have a specific sword in your collection you'd like to research? If so, I would be delighted to help in any way I can (and please post some pics!). This is my area of interest, so just let me know! (William) Buckmaster & Co. operated at 3 New Burlington Street in London between 1841 and 1884 (per Bezdek's Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland).
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2008 1:54:11 GMT
G'day Jonathan, I really appreciate all your help....I am learning heaps from this site and from you. Here's what I have...(I presume) Model 1822 Infantry officer's sword by Buckmaster of London. A bit of extra info ....there is a small ivory piece attached by two little nails to the pommel of the sword. There is a number engraved on the quillon in front of the backstrap: 533123004. The etching is very clear, with very finely executed scrolls surrounding the crown and cypher.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2008 3:04:51 GMT
Cam, I would date this sword to the early 1850s. It is a Pattern 1845 Infantry Officer's Sword. This pattern is nearly identical to the P1822, the difference being that the P1845 has a fullered "Wilkinson" blade instead of a pipe back blade. It is pre-1854 since it has a hinged guard. The Flowers of the Union under the VR did not appear until about 1853 or so, so that is why I think your sword may date to 1853-1854, and this obviously fits well within the time frame William Buckmaster & Co. were in operation (they were cutlers and uniform retailers). OldSwords does not have any useful serial number info for Buckmaster. I have been told that the ivory insert was used to make the pommel smoother and to reduce wear to one's uniform, and that it was more commonly used by officers stationed in India. Unfortunately I do not have a source to back this up, its just something that came up in conversation. It makes sense, kind of. I am not really satisfied with the explanation, but without some sort of written documentation it is a good guess. Without an officer's name or initials it will be impossible to research the original owner. It looks like a nice example of a mid 19th century British officer's sword, nonetheless! Does it have a scabbard? If you are looking for books, I have a few recommendations. The essential title on British military sword patterns is Swords of the British Army by Brian Robson. It is out of print and quite expensive (~$300 US), but well worth the price, IMO. For maker information you have two options; subscribe to www.oldswords.com an/or purchase Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland by Richard Bezdek. This books is pretty reliable in the maker info section (from what I can tell), but the photo section contains a number of ID and dating errors. In other words, don't buy this books to learn about swords, buy it as a reference for makers. Another, VERY expensive option for maker information is Swords for Sea Service by Annis & May. This books is now about $500 US and more, and I am not sure if it is worth that price for the average collector. Some will say it is essential, but it isn't for me at that price. I also recommend joining www.swordforum.com. There is a dedicated section for antique and military sword discussion. There is a diversity of interest and experience amongst the members, and several published authors contribute to the section as well.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2008 3:51:37 GMT
Hi Jonathan, Thanks for the info... I have been doing a bit of a search to track down some of the texts you have mentioned. So far I have been able to get on interlibrary loan using my librarian skills .... Sword and sword Makers of England and Scotland and a couple of the out of print books by John Wilkinson-Latham. British Military Swords and Pictorial History of Swords and Bayonets. And as I type this I just got an email saying that Swords of the British Army: the regulation patterns 1788-1914 by Robsonis available for pickup. The out of print ones I am going to colour scan as I refuse to pay $hundreds of dollars to buy when you can legitimately copy out of print texts. There is a couple of others I am attempting to locate ...I presume you have these ones I have mentioned. Are there any others that are worth pursuing.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2008 13:59:36 GMT
Not that specifically address British military pattern swords. Others exist but from what I have heard they contain many errors and do not offer anything new. If you have one book on the subject, it should be the Robson title. Robert Wilkisnon-Latham has several books I'd like to purchase since they are quite specific to my interests. They can be purchased through this site: pooleyswordpublishing.blogspot.com/
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2008 0:35:47 GMT
G'day, The sword doesn't have a scabbard...worse luck and I rather think it would be very difficult to get my hands on one. Just for interest sake, these are the other texts that I was intending to track down. 1. British Service Sword & Lance Patterns by Skennerton 2. Sword Lance & Bayonet : a record of the arms of the British Army & Navy by Ffoulkes 3. Swords in Colour: including other edged weapons by Wilkinson-Latham 4. Edged Weapons by Wilkinson 5. British Cut and Thrust weapons by Wilkinson-Latham
As you can see I have decided to focus my attention on English blades...and maybe expand later into German and French. But you have to start somewhere. You should see how hard it is to track down any types of swords here in Australia. Looks like I will be importing everything from the States and the UK. Lucky the the $A dollar is so good against the US at the moment otherwise I would have to find another hobby.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2008 1:08:05 GMT
I don't have personal experience with any of the books, but other collectors who have these books are not overly enthusiastic about them. I imagine they'll have some unique photos, but as far as information Robson cannot be beat! The advantage of the titles you mention is that they are not too expensive.
Is there a particular area of British swords you are interested in collecting?
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on May 20, 2008 1:13:05 GMT
to me it looks like it's the sword has been repaired a few times
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2008 2:42:41 GMT
to me it looks like it's the sword has been repaired a few times Because of the ivory insert? The hilt was made with a slot for the insert, which was further secured by pins. This is not a common feature, but this is how the inserts are fixed in every example I have seen. Based on the photos this looks like a nice untouched example.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on May 20, 2008 2:46:06 GMT
not just that look at the second to last pic the hilt looks like it was modifide
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2008 2:47:02 GMT
Hi Jonathan, Seeing I am just starting out....areas that interest me are: Infantry and Cavalry swords but I think I will focus on swords that I can afford. I originally thought I would attempt to purchase and example of each of the Patterns available but I think that might be a bit ambitious. So that means probably swords made after 1800 to WW1 but I have started reading Robsons book and it just opens a big can of worms. Researching early swords is not as fulfilling if you can't actually own any of them and as I was saying before there is a distinct lack of available swords here in Australia so that means buying something from o/s sight unseen which causes angst. I was looking at the swords in your collection that you loaded up on this site and officially started to burn with jealousy. If you ever decide to offload any of your lettle gems let me know. I found a couple of articles that I thought I might upload that might be of interest to this forum but not sure how you do it? Is it the same as loading a photo? Cam
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2008 3:01:59 GMT
not just that look at the second to last pic the hilt looks like it was modifide The hinged inboard guard is an intentional feature of Pattern 1822 and 1845 Infantry Officers' Swords. When worn at one's side it would be folded as in Cam's photo. The idea was to prevent wear and tear to one's uniform. With sword drawn the hinged portion would be folded flat, like this:
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2008 3:15:11 GMT
One of the sayings I have seen repeated numerous times in the Antique & Military Sword Forum at SFI is "buy the best you can afford". For me that means fewer purchases per year, but very worthwhile and rewarding purchases. For others it may mean that they spend whatever is left at teh end of the month after bill shave been paid.
I, too, had (and maybe still have) the goal of collecting an example of each of the British sword patterns. This is achievable over time. Some patterns are more rare and will be difficult to find at an affordable price or in good condition, but that is all part of the hobby. At some point I'll may try for a "at least one of each" type of collection, but at the moment Victorian and later military swords are what I'm after.
Named examples (meaning swords that either bear the original owner's name or initials, or Wilkinson swords with researchable serial numbers) are quite a lot of fun because one can be a historical sleuth and uncover the swords forgotten history and the biographies of their original owners.
Peter Busch (sp) from SFI lives in Australia and could probably point you in the direction of some Australian dealers and specialist shows and fairs. If you have questions about dealers from the UK or US feel free to PM me and I'll do my best to find you an answer.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2008 13:17:16 GMT
I have this exact same sword (with scabered and tassels) Ive been wanting to find out what it was for a while. paid $300AU for it about 7 years ago, thanks for the info. The blade is a semprini however (its like etched or engrave prettey much all up the blade except for about the last foot which really looks cool) but if you acidentaly touch it ,i ;Dt marks with this black stuff does anyone haveany tip on cleaning / care maintainence, ive always been to scared to try anything.
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