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Post by dougman on Mar 28, 2016 2:22:37 GMT
As a follow up to this thread, and since I'm not entirely clear on how this site treats zombie threads, I thought I'd make a new thread for the sake of keeping things streamlined...Mods, if this is an issue, please merge the two threads. For the sake of brevity, this thread can be summed up in one simple yes/no question: Are all made-in-Pakistan swords junk?
For a little more elaboration into my own specific questions, read on: Going back to 2002 or thereabouts, I purchased a 48" broadsword from a gun show. The seller didn't have a lot of info on the sword except for one word stamped on the blade: Pakistan. He recommended using Eagle One's Nevr-Dull to treat the blade and all exposed surfaces after handling, which I did at least once a year every year between 2002 and 2012. I started the thread in the first sentence in 2012 in an effort to ascertain the blade material (in other words, will it shatter to bits if I try to chop a cardboard box, milk jug, or straw bale?), after hearing some rumors about Pakistan making some decent stage combat swords. In that thread, I was given a few simple tests to see if the sword was cheap (brittle) stainless...a magnet test and a corrosion test. If a magnet sticks, it's not likely to be the cheap grade of stainless used in most Bud K level swords; if it rusts, it's also not likely to be cheap stainless. At the time, I put a drop of water on the blade and let it set overnight, to find that it hadn't rusted at all; the water just left a smudge on the blade. But, I was still applying Nevr Dull regularly at the time. Fast forward to today...I picked the sword up from my parents after 4 long years of negligence, and what do I see on the spot where the water droplet was? Rust. Not a lot, just a little on the surface. Looking closer at the blade, I spied a little more dusting of rust throughout the whole thing, mostly along the fuller where the polish would've rubbed thin. There's some actual scaling going on along the tang. Having said that, and lacking pictures, I hope I can describe the sword sufficiently (for the time being): It is 48" long...pommel to tip. It's totally full-tang; the tang is the width of the blade, sandwiched between some sort of hardwood grips, which are riveted on. I've seen enough BudK-level swords to know that this type of handle is not found on cheaper SLO's...hell, my buddy's $200 William Wallace sword had a blade that rattled around inside the handle. The blade on mine does bend at least an inch (never really pressed it further), and it snaps back into shape. Given all of that...the solid, full-tang; the light corrosion on untreated parts of the sword; and the springy nature of the blade...Am I just polishing a turd here, or might I actually have something decent? Should I be worried about attacking errant melons, milkjugs, hay bales, and cardboard boxes? |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 28, 2016 3:31:29 GMT
I have a made in India sword (a real cheapo one, with "Made in India" stamped into the ricasso) that has a nice tang and I use to split kindling. I tried to break it to no avail, smashing it on rocks and hammering it into wood. It's a lil tank. Could be the same situation with you're Pakistani sword. If it rusted and can flex a bit (and feels sturdy) I'd be okay with cutting with it.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 28, 2016 3:31:56 GMT
Might be OK. It's more likely to be too soft than too brittle. Usually, "too soft" means the blade is quite tough; you might put a bend in the blade, but it shouldn't snap. "Too hard", on the other hand, results in brittle, and a sword that fails by breaking rather than bending. Cut with caution (which is the way you should always cut).
But a couple of points about stainless steels:
- they can and will rust (but much less easily than carbon steels and other non-stainless alloys)
- cheap stainless steels tend to be tough (low carbon, and soft); it's the expensive stainless steels that tend to brittleness.
- the problem with cheap stainless steel swords is general poor construction and bad or non-existent heat-treatment; poor choice of steel is a lesser problem (and is mostly an issue through contributing to bad heat-treatment)
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Post by foxmartialarts on Mar 29, 2016 1:30:06 GMT
"Stainless Steel" actually originally didn't mean anything about rust, it referred to the metal's ability to be exposed to vinegar without staining! I found that interesting when I learned it...
if you have the means to, running a hardness test on it with a couple of hardness files is always an option.
Kult of Athena's new brand "Devil's Edge" are Pakistani make, and they seem to be fairly durable. I'll be interested in hearing the results of your testing!
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Post by dougman on Mar 30, 2016 16:13:27 GMT
Just keeping this thread afloat...I fully intend to get some good pics of the sword in question up here, then maybe take it to my cousin (the most likely guy I know to have hardness files). I've been saving up some rolled-up blueprints from work to try my hand at cutting if everything is peachy keen with the blade.
I oughta use my machete as a control group...it's a real nice Tramontina (sp?) machete made from spring steel and can slice through a 3" diameter white pine in one swoop...
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Post by chrisperoni on Mar 30, 2016 22:45:14 GMT
Just to throw another wrench into your mix  I had a p.o.s. s.l.o. that was stainless and had a full tang the width of the blade with wood slabs on either side riveted to the tang. There are some pics in your old thread, don't forget. Try to get some full length and closeups when you post more. |
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Post by dougman on Mar 31, 2016 14:07:32 GMT
Just to throw another wrench into your mix ;) I had a p.o.s. s.l.o. that was stainless and had a full tang the width of the blade with wood slabs on either side riveted to the tang. There are some pics in your old thread, don't forget. Try to get some full length and closeups when you post more. That's for sure...the pics in the old thread are crappy cell phone pics. I'll certainly get some close ups, full length, and a bunch of other angles. |
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Post by dougman on Apr 2, 2016 1:07:09 GMT
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Post by dougman on Apr 4, 2016 16:20:44 GMT
Did a little more messing around this weekend. Even blunted, the sword will pretty nicely cut through some pinkie-sizes tree branches with about the same efforts as a similarly blunted knife. I didn't want to risk anything bigger than that without a little confirmation from the forumites here.
The point of balance is a little more than 3" from the hilt...not quite a full 4", but definitely greater than 3".
And, I did bend the sword over my knee to a deflection of 4" or so, and it rebounded back into place, straight as an arrow.
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Post by chrisperoni on Apr 4, 2016 22:49:58 GMT
I searched but couldn't find out where this is from. Given the type of sword and age, you might have more luck asking the long timers at myarmory
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Post by dougman on Apr 5, 2016 1:31:59 GMT
I searched but couldn't find out where this is from. Given the type of sword and age, you might have more luck asking the long timers at myarmory I'll give 'em a shot, though IME, their attitudes toward Pakistani swords are a little more volatile than here. |
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Post by chrisperoni on Apr 5, 2016 2:31:51 GMT
Yeah that might be true but it's worth a shot given that many of ch have been collecting for so long
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Post by dougman on Apr 5, 2016 16:44:37 GMT
Yeah that might be true but it's worth a shot given that many of ch have been collecting for so long One reply in, and I've already got a very nice bit of information. thanks for the tip! Now, does this sword fall cleanly into any of Oakeshott's typology? |
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Post by chrisperoni on Apr 5, 2016 17:09:58 GMT
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Post by dougman on Apr 5, 2016 18:01:36 GMT
Yeah, they mentioned the long ricasso over at MA. That's a slight anomaly,not usually seen in European swords, which only muddies the water further. Given the nature of the steel though, the one respondent said it's probably not usable in an actual combat setting, but may be suited for solo drills and/or showmanship...it's probably not *just* a wall hanger. |
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Post by chrisperoni on Apr 5, 2016 18:12:41 GMT
I found the post and read it. Given what he wrote as well a your flex test and the full tang, it sound pretty promising. When I get home tonight I'll look for my stainless slo that is full tang and try flexing it to see if it does what yours did. If your sword doesn't have an edge on it I would give it one and try a couple of water bottles out.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 6:52:21 GMT
As a follow up to this thread, and since I'm not entirely clear on how this site treats zombie threads, I thought I'd make a new thread for the sake of keeping things streamlined...Mods, if this is an issue, please merge the two threads. For the sake of brevity, this thread can be summed up in one simple yes/no question: Are all made-in-Pakistan swords junk?
For a little more elaboration into my own specific questions, read on: Going back to 2002 or thereabouts, I purchased a 48" broadsword from a gun show. The seller didn't have a lot of info on the sword except for one word stamped on the blade: Pakistan. He recommended using Eagle One's Nevr-Dull to treat the blade and all exposed surfaces after handling, which I did at least once a year every year between 2002 and 2012. I started the thread in the first sentence in 2012 in an effort to ascertain the blade material (in other words, will it shatter to bits if I try to chop a cardboard box, milk jug, or straw bale?), after hearing some rumors about Pakistan making some decent stage combat swords. In that thread, I was given a few simple tests to see if the sword was cheap (brittle) stainless...a magnet test and a corrosion test. If a magnet sticks, it's not likely to be the cheap grade of stainless used in most Bud K level swords; if it rusts, it's also not likely to be cheap stainless. At the time, I put a drop of water on the blade and let it set overnight, to find that it hadn't rusted at all; the water just left a smudge on the blade. But, I was still applying Nevr Dull regularly at the time. Fast forward to today...I picked the sword up from my parents after 4 long years of negligence, and what do I see on the spot where the water droplet was? Rust. Not a lot, just a little on the surface. Looking closer at the blade, I spied a little more dusting of rust throughout the whole thing, mostly along the fuller where the polish would've rubbed thin. There's some actual scaling going on along the tang. Having said that, and lacking pictures, I hope I can describe the sword sufficiently (for the time being): It is 48" long...pommel to tip. It's totally full-tang; the tang is the width of the blade, sandwiched between some sort of hardwood grips, which are riveted on. I've seen enough BudK-level swords to know that this type of handle is not found on cheaper SLO's...hell, my buddy's $200 William Wallace sword had a blade that rattled around inside the handle. The blade on mine does bend at least an inch (never really pressed it further), and it snaps back into shape. Given all of that...the solid, full-tang; the light corrosion on untreated parts of the sword; and the springy nature of the blade...Am I just polishing a turd here, or might I actually have something decent? Should I be worried about attacking errant melons, milkjugs, hay bales, and cardboard boxes? Hmmmmmm........ First, let's put aside the fact that I am from Pakistan. No foolish patriotism here, I practice Muay Boran, JSA so I am loyal to my country and know all the good and acknowledge the bad as well. Most blades made in Pakistan are....well, junk. That's because most blacksmiths and bladesmiths are self taught, they heat an improvised furnace and experiment with melted junk metal until they know how to beat a piece of metal into something that can be sharpened and called a knife or blade. Anyways, then they reduce raw input price on it (rat tail tangs, excessive fullers(Bo Hi for JSAians like myself) etc) and try to maximize profit so they can put decent food on their tables, and send their children to school etc. These are the people most exporters target since it is cheap labor and internationally, enough idiots are present for them to benefit............ However, there are Blacksmiths(who are specifically BLADEsmiths) that are Masters of their craft, since they make the famous Talwars and the less known but so called Elven Swords that Pakistan is famous for. And they are in no way cheap imitations. They are rigorously tested and are equal matches in categories to Japanese and Western Master Blades! The skill level here is enough that my Uncles who practice JSA asked experimentally for a Katana. The Smith took a 6 months time frame to study its history and technique of its craft, then made a folded, differential tempered blade with authentic Hamon, that was polished in Japan and the Polisher exclaimed that it 'seems like a Master's work'. Since you bought it off a free lance, small scale, by chance vendor, there is a great probability what u have is awesome. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 7:03:21 GMT
There is this thing smiths here in Pakistan do to check if the blade is carbon enough for functionality. Very near to the hilt, add some vinegar mixed with lemon juice and add a DROP and leave for 10-15 mins. Then dry the patch using a hairdryer or fan or whatever and if there is a rough yet shiny patch, it is most likely a carbon blade.
Don't know how valid it is but it works.
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Post by Croccifixio on Apr 8, 2016 9:14:07 GMT
Another way to check would be to do a spark test on a grinder. Long and popping sparks mean carbon, so the more the merrier.
I posted a reply before but my pc crashed and I was to pissed to rewrite it.
The gist is that blades from Pakistan, India, Thailand, Vietnam, Philippines, Eastern Europe, and China to some extent get negative feedback because they are the centers for cheap labour in the world. Hence you have a wider range of skill in bladesmiths - many produce bad blades en masse because as stated above, they need to put food on the table. But that doesn't mean masters don't exist in these areas. In fact I'd argue that some are at least equally skilled with Japanese, US, and Western Europe blade smiths because they've forged more blades. Howard Clark posted recently the adage about the two pottery classes - one group made 20 aiming for quantity while the other made 1 aiming for quality. At the end of the class, the ones who made 20 actually made a better pot because they were able to practice and were able refine technique with every pot made.
Another anecdote: remember Cejunior's master of fire exhibit in Macau? It wasn't the Japanese smith who "won" that. Not Peter Johnsson. Not Jake Powning, Vince Evans, Tinker Pierce, Jesus Hernandez, Jim Kelso, Howard Clark, Anthony Dicristofano. Not MAS' Yong Soo Park. But Zhou Zheng Wu, the Chinese smith who runs the biggest forge in Lonquan.
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