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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 13:31:49 GMT
I am trying my hand at knife making, which has always interested me. Recently I have been using the blades of machetes and reprofiling them into knives and swords. However, this limits me in blade thickness and length. I would like to start making my own blades from scratch. I have heard 1080 and 1084 are best for beginners. I have a fire pit out in my backyard, which I plan on using to heat the blade. What do I need for quenching? What do I quench the hot blade in, water or oil? What do I use to hold the quench liquid that would allow for a longer blade? Do I need to quench the tang? Also, how do I have to temper the blade? I've heard most people use an oven, but I don't know specifics. Are there any tools worth investing in? Thanks, Bennett
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Jan 1, 2016 20:17:56 GMT
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Jan 1, 2016 20:54:13 GMT
1080 and 1084 are good for beginners. 1050 and 1075 is better (less carbon = easier to forge and more forgiving if quenched in water). But I don't think there is much of a difference. 10xx steels can be quenched in water or brine or a fast oil. A fast oil like Maxim oil P#50 or Parks50 is much much safer than water or brine. Warm canola oil will work too. You can make your own trough for quenching or buy one. You can use your kitchen oven or an industrial type temp control oven for tempering. Some skilled blacksmiths use their forge to temper. You dont have to quench the tang. You might want to buy an IR gun, but it's not really necessary: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U77VJPG?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 21:02:23 GMT
Thanks for the info. I actually use stock removal, not forging
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 21:06:24 GMT
I actually just got an IR gun with a kydex sheath making kit. If I use 1050 or 1075 because they can be quenched in water, how hot do they have to get? Also, can it be any water or diluted? I don't have any quench oils laying around, nor do I have anything that would hold flaming oil without melting
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 21:07:24 GMT
How do I go about tempering in an oven?
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Jan 1, 2016 21:33:01 GMT
The $50 knife shop by Wayne Goddard, and custom knifemaking by Tim McCreight have a few simple methods for heat treating. Depending on what size blades you're planning to make a one brick forge is cheap and easy to make for heat treating.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Jan 1, 2016 21:33:44 GMT
Ok, so everybody will have a different opinion on this, but here's what I do being an exclusively backyard and not very scientific blademaker.
Normalize your blade. To do this, heat it up to non-magnetic and let it air cool. I think Tom recommends two cycles, but I usually just do one. Or sometimes not even at all if it's just something I made as a tool. But at least do one normalization cycle.
For the quench, heat back to non-magnetic and submerge in your quenchant. The quenchant you use is entirely up to you. Like Diggs said, water and brine (salt/water mixture) will work and it's easy to get a hold of. I mean.. It comes straight out yo' faucet. If you wanna get fancy you can get the fast quench oils Diggs mentioned, but you don't have to. They are just a little less harsh and have a lower blade failure rate.
If you're like me and don't have a magnet, just shoot for a good red color. It's not scientific or very accurate, but it's better than nothing.
I temper my blades in my kitchen oven. Look up what temperatures to use to get your desired result for your steel. Tempering temps usually range between 400 and 600 degrees. I do one or two cycles of 400 degrees F. Put blade in 400 degree oven for one hour, then take it out and let it air cool.
I have some 1084/1080 (they are the same thing, basically) and it seems pretty easy to HT. Made two water quenched blades out of it so far and no failures. So that's cool.
Like I said, I don't get all sciency and specific with it. Doing so will certainly get you a better end product, but you can still make a knife without it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 23:12:10 GMT
Thanks mikeeman. The detailed information for the backyard heat treat is very helpful. Non magnetic temp is usually cherry red, right?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 23:12:54 GMT
Nevermind, I just noticed that you covered that
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 23:31:00 GMT
What's the difference between annealing and normalizing, and when do I use them?
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Jan 1, 2016 23:36:17 GMT
Annealing is when you want to make something as soft as you can to make it easier to work on. Best for grinding/filing/what-have-you. To do this, you want to get it up to non-magnetic then let it cool as slowly as you can. I do this with a small knife by heating it up in my single burner forge, then I turn the forge off, but leave the knife in it and cover up the front and back ports to try to keep the heat in.
Normalizing is when you are basically resetting the grain structure of the steel. For example, while forging or grinding, some places are going to get hotter than others and cool at different rates. So different areas could be different structures or hardnesses. (hardnessi? Lol) so you want to normalize to get all the steel in the same state so you can heat treat it will less risk of ruining it.
Hopefully more experienced people can tell you more. I really don't know a whole lot about the more technical aspects of steel and HT.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 23:39:12 GMT
Thanks, thats really helpful. So anneal before grinding and normalize before heat treat then temper in oven
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Jan 1, 2016 23:41:20 GMT
Those are the basic principles. Now, guys like Tom, Diggs, or Driggers could give you some more technical guidelines to make your knife better, but those are the basic steps.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 23:46:29 GMT
The basic steps are perfect for a beginner who has never attempted to make a blade from scratch
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Jan 2, 2016 5:32:44 GMT
First what do you mean by fire pit. If it what I think it is it really won't work. You need a forge to control the temperature and get even heat.
Using a water quench you are going to crack blades, I know I've cracked a few. I just use used transmission fluid, only have crack a couple of blades using it.
When you first get you steel it will be in an annealed state so you can just start grinding. Since you won't be doing any forging you really don't have to worry about annealing or normalizing. You can normalize if it makes you feel better know I do sometimes. Get a magnetic color can lie like hell to you. The color of the steel will change do to lighting condition for that day.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jan 2, 2016 12:27:51 GMT
As Driggers said, no need to normalize if you bought new high quality steel (already annealed) and only did stock removal. 1080 or 1060 are good beginner steels which doesn't mean they don't make an excellent blade, only that they are fairly easy to handle. Many "master smiths" still use those steels, fancy alloys isn't always a good thing.
It is very easy to build a ground forge or such. Google some plans, there are ENDLESS possibilities.
I recommend you use hot veggie oil for the quench. Canola is fine. Hot because it actually makes the quench faster. I'd avoid water, unless you want a hamon which I doubt.
Non-magnetic is not hot enough for many steels. You need a little bit more. I also check with a magnet but I'm determining the point of quenching by watching for decalescence. You can find many YouTube videos on that or recalescence (which looks exactly the same, only occurs when cooling steel and not heating when it up). Always quench on a rising heat!
In order to judge color, it needs to be very dark. No point in doing this outside on a sunny day. So do it in the late evening or so.
Join a blade makers forum. I recommend Don Fogg's forum. There is no question that can't be answered there.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2016 13:22:38 GMT
Thanks for all of the information. It's really helpful. And ldriggers, by fire pit, I meant something like this
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Jan 2, 2016 13:59:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2016 14:06:33 GMT
The original idea I had was to build the pit in with firebricks to make it smaller and to add a gap for airflow using a hair dryer or leaf blower, but I don't think that'll work. Like you say, I'm best off building it myself. Thanks for the link
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