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Post by metinemre on Nov 26, 2015 23:51:39 GMT
Tip heavy vs POB towards the tsuba katanas.
What do you think is better for a katana?
I read in few reviews there are katanas that have their POB close to guard/tsuba just like Euro swords. While it seems that majoriy of the production katanas are tip heavy 6-7`` POB from the tsuba, some are closer POB to tsuba due to longer nagako, tsuka.
What do you prefer? Did you try both styles? What do you think pros and cons are?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Nov 27, 2015 5:19:52 GMT
POB closer in gives you better control, farther out gives you more power. I much prefer closer in. Good blade geometry, sharpness and edge alignment will give me a good cut, so more power isn't high up on my list. Control is. Unfortunately, it's much harder to find a sword with a real close POB. William gave me a couple Euro swords, and I much prefer that kind of weight distribution.
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Post by Croccifixio on Nov 27, 2015 6:29:25 GMT
Sometimes POB doesn't give you better control. If it's so far back that you can't feel the weight of the blade, then any move involving the wrist would be extremely awkward.
For katanas, I personally think it should be at the middle ground. Since their guards do not make them all that good in a bind, I don't think you need it to float in your hand. Leverage with the tsuka length and powerful cuts seem to be the main characteristics of katana. That would require strength in the middle area of the blade.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Nov 27, 2015 7:01:48 GMT
Better depends on your intent I guess. A lot of the competition cutters (which I really don't like to use) have a higher POB. A lot of the swords used in iai alone have close POB for ease of movement and to prevent repetitive stress injuries. I personally prefer a POB about 6" from the tsuba, but I'd prefer closer than further if I had to choose. I tend to prefer the middle ground where I can change directions quickly while still having good weightiness which helps you "feel" out your cuts more. Ultimately, overall feel matters more than POB for me. Sometimes POB doesn't give you better control. If it's so far back that you can't feel the weight of the blade, then any move involving the wrist would be extremely awkward. For katanas, I personally think it should be at the middle ground. Since their guards do not make them all that good in a bind, I don't think you need it to float in your hand. Leverage with the tsuka length and powerful cuts seem to be the main characteristics of katana. That would require strength in the middle area of the blade. What do you mean by good in a bind? Do you mean like close in with blades locked? In that case, I agree. I tend to use my hands and arms when I get in close to lock the opponent's sword out of cutting motions with one hand and cut with the other. How does one deal with the situation with other swords? I know the jian has some stickiness and parry techniques for those situations that work because of how nimble it is.
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Post by Croccifixio on Nov 27, 2015 7:48:30 GMT
Yep, locked blade (edge on edge stickiness).
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Nov 27, 2015 14:22:16 GMT
Edge on edge (shudder).
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Post by Kiyoshi on Nov 27, 2015 16:46:35 GMT
I wouldn't necessarily just mean edge on edge. If you cut with a katana you can black with the ridge and step in or even cut into the side of your opponent's sword and step in. The katana can maneuver somewhat in this kind of situation but it doesn't do as well as a jian. I don't think it has much to do with the tsuba though. The way you use a katana and geometry only allow for some kinds of stickiness and parries but not many, so i find the techniques I talked about earlier more useful. They get the job done though. I'd be curious to know what other swords that I've not had training with do in such a situation, but that isn't what the thread is about, lol.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Nov 27, 2015 22:23:06 GMT
My personal preference is a POB of between 4-6"... I don't like an overly tip heavy blade (not really good for Iai/good Budo), and too close to the tsuba makes it feel "weird" to me. But, to each his own. My preference has to do with the iaitos and shinken I've trained with over the years, all of them having their POB in the area mentioned above.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 27, 2015 23:03:26 GMT
What do you mean by good in a bind? Do you mean like close in with blades locked? In that case, I agree. I tend to use my hands and arms when I get in close to lock the opponent's sword out of cutting motions with one hand and cut with the other. How does one deal with the situation with other swords? I know the jian has some stickiness and parry techniques for those situations that work because of how nimble it is. Some longsword HEMA people really focus on fighting in the bind. There's a lot of relevant technique, which includes both keeping both hands on the sword, and letting go with one hand and wrestling. Keeping both hands on the grip, you use position and pressure to maintain control of and awareness of the opponent's blade, and pivot your sword about the point of contact with the opponent's blade to hit them with your blade (or your hilt) while stopping them from doing the same (the "winding" part of "binding and winding"). Since you have a long two-handed grip, you have a lot of leverage with which to pivot your sword about the point of contact. Typical longsword balance copes with this OK. The pivot point corresponding to the front hand is close to the tip, but the pivot corresponding to the back hand is much further up the blade (can be closer to the hilt than the tip). This gives you, with both hands working together, a lot of flexibility in rotating your sword about the point of contact, while maintaining that contact. See typical pivot points for various swords here: www.peterjohnsson.com/the-making-of-a-long-sword/My preference with longsword is to avoid the bind, or go to grapple if in the bind. However, letting go with one hand to grapple reduces the mobility of your own sword, so not always feasible. For rapier and dagger, the dagger strongly discourages closing to grapple. You also have only one hand to move your sword around with, and the sword is heavy, so it's useful to have the pivot point well up the blade, where you expect blade-on-blade contact. Some discussion of this here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/27344/point-rapiers-george-silver-sideand typical placement of the pivot points can be seen in the earlier link. With no dagger, there's the option of closing to grapple. Against something lighter and faster, like a smallsword, a fast disengage can stick you before you get in close enough. For arming swords intended to be used with shield or buckler, we can see rapier-like balance. For the above, the key point of balance is where the pivot points are, not where the POB is. So the POB should be located so as to get the pivot points in the right place. POB affects blade on blade contact, too. Generally, the more blade presence (whether from simply being heavier, or having POB further out), your blade is displaced less by beats, and the point displaced less by beats. if your sword has a pivot point close to the tip, it's easier to keep you point directed where you want it, while keeping contact and pushing the opponents blade off-line. This isn't like winding with a longsword above (but it's a major part of longsword technique, used at longer distance than bind and wind; pivot point at the tip lets this work quite well). Also works well with jian, which tend to balance similarly. The above is not just about edge-on-edge, but also edge-on-flat and flat-on-flat. As for katana, my main katana for cutting balances at 6.5", has pivot point at 9" from the tip, so balanced much like a European cavalry sabre. Relatively lightweight (under 1kg, iirc). Heavier tsuba (and nakago, if replacing the blade) would bring that POB back in towards the tsuba, but would make the sword heavier overall.
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