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Post by Alexander on Nov 4, 2015 18:27:02 GMT
Can anyone break down or explain the qualities, properties, capabilities and benefits of each when used for Katanas. Assume all other variables are the same blade geometry, heat treatment ect.
T-10
L-6
The 10s steel-1055,1065,1075 ect
5160
CPM-3V
spring steel
Unable to find a thread covering it all in one if available just point the way thanks.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Nov 4, 2015 19:09:26 GMT
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Post by DigsFossils-n-Knives on Nov 4, 2015 19:20:10 GMT
Can anyone break down or explain the qualities, properties, capabilities and benefits of each when used for Katanas. Assume all other variables are the same blade geometry, heat treatment ect. T-10 L-6 The 10s steel-1055,1065,1075 ect 5160 CPM-3V spring steel Unable to find a thread covering it all in one if available just point the way thanks. T-10 is similar to 1095 so it might be fair to group them together. 10xx steels are simple (meaning low alloy) tool steels that vary in carbon content. 1045 for example would have the lower carbon making it the tougher steel of the series but poorer in edge holding. 1095 would be the opposite where it would have the best edge holding but not as tough as the lower carbon 10xx steels. BUT, if you DH 1095 then you get the best of both worlds meaning very tough and the best of edge retention of the 10xx series. There are still tougher and better edge holding steels. One thing that needs to be clarified is -- I hear sometimes of "spring tempered" 10xx steel. I don't know how to make 10xx act like a spring steel unless they mean the RC is lower than usual so it allows for more flex. L6 is highly respected as a great steel for swords. Very tough and great edge holding. Bainite L6 is the toughest form of L6 and only a few people know how to make bainite L6. My heat treater, who is well respected in the knife industry, cannot make bainite spine and martensite edge in L6 in his facility. But he told me (and take it with a grain of salt) that full martensite L6 is tough enough and has a great edge holding and going DH bainite+martensite is not necessary. 5160, 9260 are spring steels. They are fine for a katanas especially if you are concerned about lateral bending (allowing it to spring back to true even after being bent as much as 90 degrees). I don't think I have seen data for spring steel edge retention but my guess is that spring steels have less carbon than 1095 so they don't hold an edge as well. But the spring steel would be tougher than 1095 so it's a trade off. 3V is (or now perhaps was) a super-steel. It scores high with toughness, rust resistance, flex, and known for a high edge holding. Perhaps it performs as good as (not sure) Bainite+martensite L6. It should be noted that 3V is a hard steel to polish to a mirror finish and harder to resharpen when compared to 10xx. The stock steel is 2x -3x more expensive than the ones above and harder to work on. I should point out a few things about this steel discussion. There will be responses below on how John Does' Kershaw (name your favorite steel) out performs the steel anyone has ever made. Whatever bro! It's a pointless argument/example. The best argument you can provide is using data sheets of steel properties at the desired RC hardness, and knowing if the knife-maker or company heat treats the steel properly. Because company XXXX selling L6 or 3V blades might fail in comparison to company YYYY with 1045 blades because company XXXX can't HT properly. Or to say it another way, a backyard blacksmith will likely produce better blades with simple steels such as O1, W2, or 1075 than supersteel blades because it's easier and more reliable to HT simple steels.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 4, 2015 19:26:39 GMT
I'll make a few comments, as "space filler" until our more knowledgeable folks comment.
T10 is a tool steel that likes a water quench and so when clay tempered to create a hamon, the hamons come out more distinct than clay tempered ... say 1095 or 1060 series steels. Usually can be hamon hardened a bit more on average than 1095, etc. Debate exists on exactly what Chinese T10 is and what USA steel it would be. Many opinions.
L6 is not an unusually special steel, but L6 Bainite blades are difficult to do really well. Never had one but have read of owners happy and unhappy with cutting edge retention...which could be more related to the skill of the heat treaters than anything else.
The 10's steels: 1045 was most seen in Chinese swords of longer ago...kind of an early use blade steel. Water quenched. .45% carbon vs. .60% for 1060 vs. .95% for 1095, etc. Popular water-quenched steel series for clay-tempered (DH) blades. 1060 came along and 1045 lost much of its popularity for mono steel blades once 1060 became the newest "super steel" for DH blades. The top of the common 10's series steels being 1095. I have a couple DH mono 1095 katanas...and yes, the hamon's are visible and good polishing makes them more so...but my T10 DH blades have the more "bright" hamons. But a good steel series and affordable...10's and T10 blade heat treatment seems to be simple enough that the average Chinese forge does a good heat treatment job...whereas the average Chinese forge would probably screw up making a L6 Bainite blade.
5160 and 9260 are "spring steels". For reasons I do not know, to give them the spring steel qualities they must be oil quenched and TH (through tempered...like a kitchen knife blade, etc)...for some reason DH (clay tempering to create a hamon messes up making them into spring steel property blades)....don't know why though.
CPM-3V: This is one of the pricey, "super steels" of which there are actually a goodly number of "super steels". I do not know of any Chinese forge making blades of such or related.
BTW, D2 tool steel sword blades are around too...., like CPM-3V, generally made by Western smiths, at the price levels commanded by individual highly skilled Western smiths....so $1,000usa is probably at the very low end of blade costs for these superior steels...superior in both material and skill in heat treatment.
Sorry to not know more.....and there is tamahagaene (sp?) which traditionally started with impure iron sands in old Japan and was with great effort, refined into various grades (by carbon content) of blade steels and used in old Japan for the "real" Japanese blades. The koto smiths ala Bizen of very long ago, made incredible blades this way. Impressive since it was a case of turning low quality iron ore into works of art. Huawei had a couple "own tamahaganae" katanas for about $900usa that I lusted after...but did not have the money for...works of art, though perhaps not like the old antique nihonto Japanese blades one can find on Ebay, etc.
RinC
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Post by Alexander on Nov 4, 2015 20:55:38 GMT
Thank you this is what I was looking for. Reading so much about the different steels its hard to keep track, this is a great help.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 4, 2015 21:31:11 GMT
You are most welcome. It admittedly does sound tiring to hear folks say that it is not only the steel properties but also the skill of the heat treatment/tempering. I used to think that the harder the blade, the better...until I had a Ruana sheath knife with a blade so hard that not only it was a headache to sharpen, but I never could get a really fine edge on it because in use, the blade was tempered too hard and the fine "shaving edge" would break off where it was thin and so the razor sharp edge was lost. While some steels are better for sword blades than others, given skilled heat treatment/tempering and quality workmanship, a lesser steel can outperform a better steel. And for the average Chinese forge (where one must go if one is on a budget too low for a Western custom), probably a good Chinese sword maker like Hanwei or Huawei make a well-done blade with enough quality in the furniture as to make all but the more affluent buyer happy. Folks have been, by and large happy with Hanwei...who offers a range of blades from simple and fairly inexpensive to pretty pricey and fancy...or Huawei who does a good 9260 TH spring steel katana for about $200 or a good mono T10 DH katana in the $300 to $600 range (fancier blades with better fittings/furniture cost more...a true'ism in life it seems). Here is a link to Huawei. Kult of Athena is a well recommended place to shop for Hanwei, etc and get the best prices. There is also SBG and the SBG classifieds where one can get a good sword at discount. www.aliexpress.com/store/626440btw, while one can research the details of a particular maker's blades (steel and performance properties), the bottom line is how does a blade perform? How does it cut? How tough is the steel? How well does its hold its edge? All basic performance details can be determined in use. One can evaluate how a say...car...drives without also being a mechanic/engineer. Best wishes in your searching. If I can give you one last piece of advice...buy a sword with the thought of having it forever, not with a plan to sell/trade. Used swords are hard to move. Dittos for many nihonto's (antique Japanese swords). When I have bought nihontos at retail and have had to sell, they are very hard to resell without taking a sizeable loss. Same with most China-made "production" swords. So take your time and buy good but nothing so pricey you fear to use it or might have to sell to buy necessities. When I tried to sell my budget Chinese-made DH mono 1095 katana here and on some classifieds, I got no offers...other than the Nigerian Prince who offered a check for like $20,000usa for which I was supposed to send him back the amount over the selling price (about $125) of my sword.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 4, 2015 21:36:06 GMT
In the case of knives and knife steel....I found that my $20usa+ Kershaw knives were better in edge retention than most of my D2 tool steel knives, despite D2 tool steel being considered a better blade steel than 9Cr13Mo (?) which is the cheaper steel used by Kershaw...for about 4 of the 5 makers of my D2 knives.
Which merely says, it is not just the steel but who works the steel into final blade properties.
I was told that well done 1045 is better than poorly done 1060...etc.
So buy the maker as much as the material :-)
RinC
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Post by Alexander on Nov 4, 2015 21:49:17 GMT
Thanks Robert, I have bought my first Katana on whim. A Musashi Damascus Dynasty, I didnt get it for the damascus but for the tsuba which I liked. I ended up really liking the katana and am looking for a what I guess everyone looks for. A blade that is tough but will hold an edge. I have really liked what I have been reading about the Hanwei Raptor blades (which KOA just bumped prices up $30 on all the swords) was also recommended the Raptor by someone. Whatever I get I will be tending to keep.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 5, 2015 2:30:58 GMT
Best wishes to you Alex! Kind of fun shopping, doing research and finally buying, isn't it? (is for me for sure!) My first was a DH (clay tempered so has hamon) mono 1095. My 2nd was a folded 1095/mono T10 sanmai...eye candy. Next, I just HAD to have a T10, so got a mono DH T10. Then a semi-custom DH mono 1095. Then a budget Huawei folded 1085/T10 waki...which had such a nice blade, I have regretted getting the lower end furniture version for it and want another Huawei waki blade with better furniture. Then a couple DH folded 1085/T10 Huawei katanas. And I do have a Japanese waki with ho hum modern furniture and a Japanese katana. If I could have only two of my swords I now have? I'd keep a Huawei waki and a Huawei katana. (customized by Huawei to my specs re. the furniture) My 3 Huawei's have especially comfortable and well-done tsukas. The Huawei katana blades are a little thinner and lighter than some of my other stuff...agile...nice not to have to muscle a sword too much. If I were to get a Hanwei, I'd go for one of their better quality (higher priced) swords....here at SBG sword reviews index you can so Hanwei's popularity via the many reviews. Valuable info in those reviews. Robert
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