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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Oct 26, 2015 12:39:58 GMT
Why not to buy a SBG custom katana:
Could anyone who owns a SBG custom katana chime in on their opinion about this?
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 26, 2015 13:00:04 GMT
I don't own an sbg... But some of his arguments come from the wrong place. Are the drill marks a concern? Yes. Kinda. But having a mei isn't... He also calls his other sword "correctly wrapped" when there is no alternating overlays. He complains of nicks when hitting edge against edge with a very hard steel. That's what dh steel does. Spring steel will of course spring back better, that's what it's supposed to do. Not to mention no katana is supposed to be hit edge to edge. He has a point with the glue and wait time. He also points out that the other sword has a real hamon when the sbg does too. That's an unnecessary distinction. I don't think that guy should have overreacted like he did but if what he said was true, I'd be a little disappointed as well.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Oct 26, 2015 13:03:49 GMT
I don't own an sbg... But some of his arguments come from the wrong place. Are the drill marks a concern? Yes. Kinda. But having a mei isn't... He also calls his other sword "correctly wrapped" when there is no alternating overlays. He complains of nicks when hitting edge against edge with a very hard steel. That's what dh steel does. Spring steel will of course spring back better, that's what it's supposed to do. Not to mention no katana is supposed to be hit edge to edge. He has a point with the glue and wait time. He also points out that the other sword has a real hamon when the sbg does too. That's an unnecessary distinction. I don't think that guy should have overreacted like he did but if what he said was true, I'd be a little disappointed as well. That's kinda what I was thinking too - he didn't show things like the core wood tsuka, which he described as, "shredded", so I can't say with 100% certainty what he was saying - if it came cracked, was just of poor quality, or had a bad nakago fit. I don't really know why he was bashing them together edge-to-edge, as that's something that you should NEVER really do (Mythbusters anybody?), but I'm not surprised that DH T-10 didn't hold up as well as TH Spring Steel, that should have been obvious. I also have to admit I cracked up when he went, "Ryanswords actually cares!" XD |
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Post by William Swiger on Oct 26, 2015 18:25:02 GMT
I had 2 of the SBG custom katana when they did their 2nd batch years ago. Still have one of them (Only 2-models offered). Had no problems at all dismounting them.
SBG has a good return policy the buyer might have considered before destroying the sword.
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mali
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF0-FZFZ-wA
Posts: 94
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Post by mali on Oct 26, 2015 20:12:45 GMT
I'm mostly just annoyed by his blatant abuse of those swords. Look at the size of the chips on the blade! *shudders*. I'd never put a sword that I bought through whatever misuse caused that damage.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Oct 26, 2015 22:48:54 GMT
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. He pointed out a couple of flaws that would have bugged me as well. At nearly $500 and a proclaimed seven month wait time I can see being upset. I also think that, based off of the "I wrote that money off" comment, he was prepared to be upset, and that some of the more important things that he could have shown, like the tsuka core and itomaki, he did not show. Showing the sword after he totaled it doesn't help us see the flaws that were there, either.
In the end, I sympathize with him. Lot of money and time invested, but I think he should have pursued a refund prior to wrecking the sword rather than destroying it and then complaining. One of the most important aspects of a vendor is customer service, and by forgoing his privilege to pursue satisfaction he shortchanged himself, and refused the vendor a chance to make things right.
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Post by johnj on Oct 26, 2015 23:56:36 GMT
It sounds to me like he had a completely legitimate gripe about the tsuka, but, being already upset about the delay and having poor self-control reacted badly and did a lot of damage. Could it have been repaired? We'll never know now.
Had he done a little research or made an inquiry here he would have known what to expect. Had he remained calm and tried to work with SBG store when problems arose or even come here to ask for help he probably would either have at least a sword in usable condition or a few hundred dollars and no sword.
The real lessons here:
-When purchasing something you can't hold in your hand before you buy, do a little research.
-If you're unhappy with goods or services, try to work with the provider for an agreeable solution. If that doesn't work, at least try to salvage something.
To me this guy is just a hotheaded example of a trashy self-entitled consumer. He is exactly the kind of person who I will not go over and above for more than once at work.
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Post by nihontocaster on Oct 27, 2015 1:22:37 GMT
Kinda split on the video too. For one part, mostly the stuff about the blade and different steels, he is of course talking lots of nonsense. T10 steel vs springsteel, steel vs steel and being angry about nicks and chips, etc. - you just got to know what steel and hardening method you are ordering, and if you prefer through hardened, go for it. Customers mistake on that.
On the other side, like Adrian Jordan commented, the parts about the Tsuka could be well right on. At least of the Ronin blades we often read about lousy Ito-wraps, glue being used on them, the Ito material not being that great. At that point I kinda feel some sympathy for him, since I just can't get used to swords with such Tsuka-related faults too. At 500 Dollars its quite annoying. And it's often stuff you don't know before you hold it in hand sadly. Not that I really believe that Ryanswords does much better Tsuka work, on the other side I can't cancel it out since I never held any of them.
Not that it matters much anymore, since the sword is obviously destroyed for good.
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addertooth
Member
Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
Posts: 458
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Post by addertooth on Oct 27, 2015 14:22:42 GMT
The edge nicks are interesting, but not for the obvious reasons. The clear expectation would be for edge damage; the type of damage tells a bit about the heat treatment. The SBG sword was chipped at the edge (a sign the edge was hard), the Ryan through hardened sword had the metal "displaced" versus chipped (a sign it was hit by a blade which was harder). Of the two choices, I prefer a harder edge for sharpness retention.
I have pictures of my Ryan swords in manufacture. Those pictures would indicate the tsuka is drilled after being wrapped (at the same time as the "tang"). The problem with the drilling of the SBG, was a dull drill bit being used with too much pressure; this produces a burr in steel (as the steel is pushed "displaced" instead of cut. A burr is not an uncommon problem when drilling with a dull bit, but it does seem more pronounced than expected on the SBG sword.
The tang stampings on the Ryan are a nice touch, but are not a huge deal to me. They are in the category of "kinda cool they did it", but not a disqualifier for a manufacturer who chooses not to mark their goods.
Like most people, the destruction of two blades somewhat disturbs me, however, it says something good about both blades. They were struck hard, edge to edge (multiple times) and neither blade shattered. This is a hidden endorsement in the video. It is always good to see these blades can be abused (and mis-used) and not send large shards of steel spinning off to harm someone.
As for glue on the wrap (ito), almost everyone uses glue for the terminating knot. Many manufacturers run two strips of double-sticky tape, one the edge (ha) and the second strip on the palm (mune) side of the handle (tsuka). (I hear Cottontail customs has a deep and personal loathing of this practice) I wonder if the tape is the "glue" he is referring to. I have wrapped without the double-sticky tape, and you can do a nice tight wrap without it, but it remains a crutch used by many manufacturers to make the wrapping process (tsuka-maki) much easier.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Nov 26, 2015 4:19:08 GMT
After getting in my own SBG "Custom" Katana in, I have to agree with him. Upon recieving it, the kashira was loose enough to almost come off, despite Paul stating that everything was "tight" on it in an earlier email he sent to me.
I also did not have exactly the tsuba I really wanted to, as they had to outsource materials for some reason, so only a short time before it was sent to me, I had no choice but to accept a different one (I wanted the tsuba from the old Kanbai katana).
The blade's polish was only standard, it's geometry wasn't as crisp as it could have been, and the kissaki was done pretty cheaply (course polish, uneven lines, etc). It also had traces of a secondary bevel, knife-style, that the sanded polish job only partially concealed.
The wood of the tsuka, upon disassembly, seemed cheap, and underneath where the kashira was, the core was splintered and open, as the inner channel for the nakago to fit into extended into and out of the end of the tsuka. One of the mekugi-pegs was also SORELY misaligned, and there was major buckling of the same around the holes.
The ito was loosely applied to the tsuka, and was only held down by that horrible double-sided thin stuff (tape?) on both sides of the samegawa, which wasn't even a continuous strip on one side! (The makers were sneaky and tried to hide the overlap with the ito, though I could still tell.)
Overall, for $450, I wouldn't TOUCH another "Custom" SBG katana, I'd much rather buy a blade from either Hanwei, Musashi, or save and buy a nicer Ronin.
Perhaps with some work it could be saved, but overall, I definitely wish that I hadn't bought it, much less waited all this time for it. How Paul could possibly stand behind this being the self-proclaimed "personalized, high quality, martial arts grade Katana, Wakizashi or Tanto at a fraction of the usual price and wait time you would usually expect for a customized design" escapes me, it really does.
I may love the site and its contents, but he should be ashamed of himself for this. Perhaps I'm being a bit unfair or overly-critical, but for a $450 blade, I feel I have to be. I'd give this 2 out of 5 stars, using his own ranking system.
This is just ridiculous.
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Post by zabazagobo on Nov 26, 2015 9:41:08 GMT
Regarding that video, there's a lot wrong with the sword, but more wrong with the video.
Firstly, where was this problematic tsuka? He didn't show the tsuka with wood that "literally shredded" once. The beat up tsuba? Who the hell knows how that got like that. He may have literally been pounding a soft metal tsuba with a literal metal hammer with excessive force for all we know.
Also, how could he just say the swords were the same? He then goes off about how spring steel is "stronger" than t10 steel which "isn't as good". Seriously? What the **** does "stronger" even mean regarding swords anyway? You talk about hardness and flexibility (in addition to geometry, heat treat and all that) about swords. Hard edge, flexible spine. Boom. "Strength" has nothing to do with it. Properly heat treated t10 tears up 9260 spring steel from my experience.
So RyanSwords adds a signature to the tang. Woohoo. Check out the reviews section, it's still a RyanSword, and it may or may not kill you.
While the narrator clearly is inexperienced ("Musashi is the best", pronunciation of "hamon"), he does raise an important point that the SBG custom was not heat treated properly: T10 steel shouldn't take that kind of damage going up against a spring steel katana off of Ebay. Additionally, the burring in the mekugi-ana is unpleasant. Who knows though, there's a lot of oddities to the video.
However, if Messenger had the same result with his custom experience, it would seem that this custom line may have gone awry. What he describes doesn't seem like a sword commanding of the price tag at all considering other options on the market. I'd give Paul the benefit of the doubt though; I'd be hard pressed to believe the guy behind this site and forum would back a product like that. That being said, I'd probably push for a return if you didn't do anything stupid with your sword like the fellow in the video.
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Post by Croccifixio on Nov 26, 2015 11:09:50 GMT
I love the forum. I'd donate a small bit if it was ever necessary. But almost all the reviews of the custom swords scream overpriced to me. I hope for the day that all this can be just seen as growing pains... but it's been quite a while, and I may have to wait a bit more.
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Nov 26, 2015 15:04:18 GMT
Regarding that video, there's a lot wrong with the sword, but more wrong with the video. Firstly, where was this problematic tsuka? He didn't show the tsuka with wood that "literally shredded" once. The beat up tsuba? Who the hell knows how that got like that. He may have literally been pounding a soft metal tsuba with a literal metal hammer with excessive force for all we know. Also, how could he just say the swords were the same? He then goes off about how spring steel is "stronger" than t10 steel which "isn't as good". Seriously? What the **** does "stronger" even mean regarding swords anyway? You talk about hardness and flexibility (in addition to geometry, heat treat and all that) about swords. Hard edge, flexible spine. Boom. "Strength" has nothing to do with it. Properly heat treated t10 tears up 9260 spring steel from my experience. So RyanSwords adds a signature to the tang. Woohoo. Check out the reviews section, it's still a RyanSword, and it may or may not kill you. While the narrator clearly is inexperienced ("Musashi is the best", pronunciation of "hamon"), he does raise an important point that the SBG custom was not heat treated properly: T10 steel shouldn't take that kind of damage going up against a spring steel katana off of Ebay. Additionally, the burring in the mekugi-ana is unpleasant. Who knows though, there's a lot of oddities to the video. However, if Messenger had the same result with his custom experience, it would seem that this custom line may have gone awry. What he describes doesn't seem like a sword commanding of the price tag at all considering other options on the market. I'd give Paul the benefit of the doubt though; I'd be hard pressed to believe the guy behind this site and forum would back a product like that. That being said, I'd probably push for a return if you didn't do anything stupid with your sword like the fellow in the video. Oh, I agree with you about the issues of the video. I'm not agreeing with him about the issues of the steel, or arguing that Ryanswords is better, I was just agreeing with the tsuka problems that the blade has. And all I did was unwrap the ito to get a full look at the tsuka, which helped to reveal it's problems to me, I haven't destroyed anything (The inner cavity for the nakago extends out of the tsuka, leaving a void all the way into the kashira, same was pieced together on one size to look like a continuous strip and was cleverly disguised, etc). The saya fit is probably the best past, as it actually is probably the best fit I have on a blade to date, though the sageo is the same synth silk as the ito, and just as thin and flimsy. Quite honestly, a sword i bought for $180 on eBay from ST-Nihonto had a better blade, though it still suffered koshirae problems as well. Once I take the tsuka off for a nakago inspection, I'll take some pictures, if anyone wants. (Which is a shame, as the older Torakami and Kuramono models seemed quite nice - these pale in comparison.) And Paul's old review of the Ko-Buke seems to suffer some of the same problems (loose synth-silk, kashira about to fall off, and questionable wood core: www.sword-buyers-guide.com/samurai-swords.html just to put things into context.) |
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Nov 26, 2015 15:55:55 GMT
Some pictures:   (Under the kashira)  (Mis-drilled mekugi hole, plus microscopic, transparent same)  |
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Post by levi on Nov 26, 2015 16:09:43 GMT
I'm sorry you were disappointed in the product. And thanks for the heads up, I was considering buying either that or the next project x sword
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Nov 26, 2015 16:49:08 GMT
I'm sorry you were disappointed in the product. And thanks for the heads up, I was considering buying either that or the next project x sword Yeah, me too. I was hoping that it would be nice, but it feels no better than an eBay katana in hand (in fact, worse than some I've seen). I'd recommend saving up a little more and getting a nicer quality Ronin Elite, as while I don't own one, from the pics I've seen and the reviews I've read, they seem quite nice. :) |
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Post by zabazagobo on Nov 26, 2015 17:34:26 GMT
Whoah. You weren't exaggerating even a little bit Messenger. That is one messed up Tsuka. That's sub $200 USD subpar chinatana status. That is totally unacceptable for a "custom" sword that took 6 months to show up after repeated delays and cost you over $400. The tsuka wood is horrible (clearly it does in fact shred, ugly) and that samegawa...my $120 USD Huawei has the exact same looking rayskin wrap (including the split panel); for a $120 sword, that's okay, for a $450? No way. I mean if I can get a full wrap with hishi-gami for $300 from Huawei (or a tight wrap from Musashi for $200 or less) there's just no justification to the quality here.
And that kissaki...I'll just stop at this point, I think you get where this rant is going. You're going for a return, right?
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Post by zabazagobo on Nov 26, 2015 17:44:30 GMT
I'm sorry you were disappointed in the product. And thanks for the heads up, I was considering buying either that or the next project x sword Yeah, me too. I was hoping that it would be nice, but it feels no better than an eBay katana in hand (in fact, worse than some I've seen). I'd recommend saving up a little more and getting a nicer quality Ronin Elite, as while I don't own one, from the pics I've seen and the reviews I've read, they seem quite nice.  Yeah the Ronin Elites (and perhaps SBG Project X swords) are still on my list of "to-buy" production pieces. I talked myself out of springing for the Hanwei SPS line after seeing a lot of little gripes with the pieces I don't like (panels that show through the ito, ito with really big diamonds, etc.), so a Ronin Elite might be my next sword purchase...If I don't end up buying another Huawei beforehand. |
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Post by MessengerofDarkness on Nov 26, 2015 18:04:33 GMT
Yeah, me too. I was hoping that it would be nice, but it feels no better than an eBay katana in hand (in fact, worse than some I've seen). I'd recommend saving up a little more and getting a nicer quality Ronin Elite, as while I don't own one, from the pics I've seen and the reviews I've read, they seem quite nice. :) Yeah the Ronin Elites (and perhaps SBG Project X swords) are still on my list of "to-buy" production pieces. I talked myself out of springing for the Hanwei SPS line after seeing a lot of little gripes with the pieces I don't like (panels that show through the ito, ito with really big diamonds, etc.), so a Ronin Elite might be my next sword purchase...If I don't end up buying another Huawei beforehand. I hear you - the Ronin Elite has been on the chopping block for me for a long time now, and maybe the hammer forged katana, although I'm less familiar with that model. And I'm still expecting on my first Huawei katana, so while that's coming to term, I'll just lurk in the dark corners and see what I can stir up. ;) I also disassembled the tsuka, and although it wasn't cracked, amazingly, the wood was so lightweight and useless that it seems like garbage. The nakago was fugly, and when I removed the tsuka, a ton of metal shavings and wood dust fell out. :( But bottom line, don't buy a SBg "Custom" katana, unless you hate having too much money. |
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Nov 26, 2015 20:33:06 GMT
That tsuka core is indeed pretty gross, messenger. Not acceptable on a sword even a third that price. I've seen some really nice Custom SBG swords, but you have every right to decry yours based on that example.
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