pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Apr 24, 2018 22:15:01 GMT
Did you use clothe to cover any?
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Apr 25, 2018 18:37:36 GMT
Yup, shields add a whole new dimension to the sword. A buckler is a step in that direction but a shield is "it". I understand what Markusagain is meaning when he describes his H/T EMSHS w/o shield. I feel the same with my XIV, it's just lacking. Sort of like being served a fabulous meal but given only water as a beverage. You really need to check shields out. Once you know what a shield is about you won't want to be without one. The XIV in particular seems to have been designed with a buckler or heater in mind. The buckler allows you to combine movements and acts as a force multiplier if using Ms. I.33 methods. The down side is it restricts the blade movement to some extent, but the XIV's weren't really designed to be used in huge sweeping cuts like longer side swords from a few centuries later. They really shine in tight corners and even with short edge hits. For larger shields I prefer the Type X with a brazil nut pommel. Though really these medieval foot-combat blades are pretty interchangeable. The one thing I would stress is to get a lot of practice and ideally some training before trying to do sharps cutting with a shield in your hand. There are techniques that keep your left wrist out of the danger zone.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 25, 2018 19:22:02 GMT
Yup, shields add a whole new dimension to the sword. A buckler is a step in that direction but a shield is "it". I understand what Markusagain is meaning when he describes his H/T EMSHS w/o shield. I feel the same with my XIV, it's just lacking. Sort of like being served a fabulous meal but given only water as a beverage. You really need to check shields out. Once you know what a shield is about you won't want to be without one. The XIV in particular seems to have been designed with a buckler or heater in mind. The buckler allows you to combine movements and acts as a force multiplier if using Ms. I.33 methods. The down side is it restricts the blade movement to some extent, but the XIV's weren't really designed to be used in huge sweeping cuts like longer side swords from a few centuries later. They really shine in tight corners and even with short edge hits. For larger shields I prefer the Type X with a brazil nut pommel. Though really these medieval foot-combat blades are pretty interchangeable. The one thing I would stress is to get a lot of practice and ideally some training before trying to do sharps cutting with a shield in your hand. There are techniques that keep your left wrist out of the danger zone. Interesting that you mentioned that the XIV weren't really designed to be used in huge sweeping cuts, and shined in tight corners and with short edge hits as I noticed myself by just swinging in abbreviated, shortened movements that I could generate a lot of cutting power very quickly and with minimal windup motion. And you can really project were that tip will go in a thrust, and with a lot of force. These were the things I wanted with this sword. After hearing you guys talk, I'm pretty committed now on the shield front.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Apr 25, 2018 20:20:50 GMT
After hearing you guys talk, I'm pretty committed now on the shield front. Good idea, probably the best you've had all day.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 25, 2018 21:02:50 GMT
After hearing you guys talk, I'm pretty committed now on the shield front. Good idea, probably the best you've had all day. Yup, as the idea I had an hour before that, jumping off the roof of my house in a chicken suit with a bottle of Tequila and a jar of KY jelly, probably wouldn't have "flown" so well. Actually, the Tequila part would have been a winner.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 25, 2018 21:29:51 GMT
Yup, as the idea I had an hour before that, jumping off the roof of my house in a chicken suit with a bottle of Tequila and a jar of KY jelly, probably wouldn't have "flown" so well. Actually, the Tequila part would have been a winner. Ya know, this is exactly what I thought before building my first shield. Except it was durex and schnapps. Schnapps is still a winner, though. You had me until the Schnapps. You help me on the sword front and I'll help you on the Alcohol. We NEED each other, bro. Schnapps on the alcohol scale would be stainless, made in China, painted black, with Ninja in BOLD type on the blade vs. Albion. Rumplemintz is an exception, btw, as it goes pretty well in hot chocolate, and if schnapps (a quick shot to "get the job done") is all ya got...well...beggars can't be choosers.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Apr 25, 2018 21:46:01 GMT
Good idea, probably the best you've had all day. Yup, as the idea I had an hour before that, jumping off the roof of my house in a chicken suit with a bottle of Tequila and a jar of KY jelly, probably wouldn't have "flown" so well. ::) Actually, the Tequila part would have been a winner. Tequila you say? I'll drink to that.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 25, 2018 21:55:47 GMT
You had me until the Schnapps. You help me on the sword front and I'll help you on the Alcohol. We NEED each other, bro. Schnapps on the alcohol scale would be stainless, made in China, painted black, with Ninja in BOLD type on the blade vs. Albion. Rumplemintz is an exception, btw, as it goes pretty well in hot chocolate, and if schnapps (a quick shot to "get the job done") is all ya got...well...beggars can't be choosers. My wife tries to draw me towards the Tequila, but I say ,cobbler stay with your afford’. We won’t be finding any Tequila coming even close to our Westphalian grain, no way, not around here ...To your health, brother. More a Bourbon man myself, but I drink to the sentiment...gulp.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 25, 2018 21:59:28 GMT
Yup, as the idea I had an hour before that, jumping off the roof of my house in a chicken suit with a bottle of Tequila and a jar of KY jelly, probably wouldn't have "flown" so well. Actually, the Tequila part would have been a winner. Tequila you say? I'll drink to that. Pure Agave, of course. So, gandy, what alcohol would you NOT drink to? Remember, I know the "secret of P".
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Apr 25, 2018 22:21:07 GMT
Tequila you say? I'll drink to that. Pure Agave, of course. So, gandy, what alcohol would you NOT drink to? Remember, I know the "secret of P". Mezcal is my favourite, but is extremely hard to come by. That would be followed by tequila. But here it's expensive and I do not like to dilute or mix it. So I usually substitute rum that is cheaper and I don't mind making a grog of up to 50/50 water, depending on the brand. It would be safe to say that I don't drink beer. The exception is dark beer with lemon and salt (a trick that I picked up from the Mexicans) with some foods primarily steamed shrimp.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Apr 25, 2018 22:57:46 GMT
The XIV in particular seems to have been designed with a buckler or heater in mind. The buckler allows you to combine movements and acts as a force multiplier if using Ms. I.33 methods. The down side is it restricts the blade movement to some extent, but the XIV's weren't really designed to be used in huge sweeping cuts like longer side swords from a few centuries later. They really shine in tight corners and even with short edge hits. For larger shields I prefer the Type X with a brazil nut pommel. Though really these medieval foot-combat blades are pretty interchangeable. The one thing I would stress is to get a lot of practice and ideally some training before trying to do sharps cutting with a shield in your hand. There are techniques that keep your left wrist out of the danger zone. Interesting that you mentioned that the XIV weren't really designed to be used in huge sweeping cuts, and shined in tight corners and with short edge hits as I noticed myself by just swinging in abbreviated, shortened movements that I could generate a lot of cutting power very quickly and with minimal windup motion. And you can really project were that tip will go in a thrust, and with a lot of force. These were the things I wanted with this sword. After hearing you guys talk, I'm pretty committed now on the shield front. Well to be clear, you absolutely *CAN* use a XIV with big cuts, and it's fun to cut bottles that way. But their ideal cutting spot tends to be several inches down from the tip on a blade that wasn't very long to begin with. This means you have a lot less room to hit even with a big arcing cut. A big cut in mid measure leaves you rather exposed to your opponent's blade. Whereas if you're using a saber or side sword your cutting sweet spot is quite a ways further out, allowing big cuts at long measure to remove hands, arms, heads, etc without too much exposure to yourself if you time it right. By placing the center back on the XIV, it does better at fighting in the mid and close measure. And of course if you're holding a buckler out in front of you doing big wind-up cuts can be dangerous. So you can do a short edge cut for example in a space that would be much more difficult with a sword 6" longer and with a complex hilt. Which is why S&B doctrine with Bolognese side sword is quite different from I.33.
|
|
|
Post by Cosmoline on Apr 25, 2018 23:01:37 GMT
As far as larger shields, there's notoriously little information on exactly how they were used. Roland's group has come up with some cool ideas, though nobody knows for sure who's right. The physical evidence suggests the heaters could be held in a number of different ways, presumably depending on circumstances. Personally I've had the most shield satisfaction using the big "viking" round shields. You can waffle-iron your opponent ;-)
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 26, 2018 0:23:03 GMT
Pure Agave, of course. So, gandy, what alcohol would you NOT drink to? Remember, I know the "secret of P". Mezcal is my favourite, but is extremely hard to come by. That would be followed by tequila. But here it's expensive and I do not like to dilute or mix it. So I usually substitute rum that is cheaper and I don't mind making a grog of up to 50/50 water, depending on the brand. It would be safe to say that I don't drink beer. The exception is dark beer with lemon and salt (a trick that I picked up from the Mexicans) with some foods primarily steamed shrimp. I think it was Churchill who stated that the British navy was run on "Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash"...ah, a world of wooden ships and iron men.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 26, 2018 0:31:11 GMT
Interesting that you mentioned that the XIV weren't really designed to be used in huge sweeping cuts, and shined in tight corners and with short edge hits as I noticed myself by just swinging in abbreviated, shortened movements that I could generate a lot of cutting power very quickly and with minimal windup motion. And you can really project were that tip will go in a thrust, and with a lot of force. These were the things I wanted with this sword. After hearing you guys talk, I'm pretty committed now on the shield front. Well to be clear, you absolutely *CAN* use a XIV with big cuts, and it's fun to cut bottles that way. But their ideal cutting spot tends to be several inches down from the tip on a blade that wasn't very long to begin with. This means you have a lot less room to hit even with a big arcing cut. A big cut in mid measure leaves you rather exposed to your opponent's blade. Whereas if you're using a saber or side sword your cutting sweet spot is quite a ways further out, allowing big cuts at long measure to remove hands, arms, heads, etc without too much exposure to yourself if you time it right. By placing the center back on the XIV, it does better at fighting in the mid and close measure. And of course if you're holding a buckler out in front of you doing big wind-up cuts can be dangerous. So you can do a short edge cut for example in a space that would be much more difficult with a sword 6" longer and with a complex hilt. Which is why S&B doctrine with Bolognese side sword is quite different from I.33. Yeah, the chop would be closer in, almost ambush. I think middle close distance would have to be thrust maneuvers where (more protected) you commit less and strike more, though without a devastating chop. In that instance, the 26" blade gives more reach than a gladius, and you can reach baseball bat and machete wielders (the two most likely bladed foe) before they reach you.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Apr 26, 2018 0:56:06 GMT
I find with a shield it is not difficult to block the adversary’s view of the XIV while placing the shield in a guard position. From there horizontal and vertical cuts can be given, as well as my favourite an upward thrust. In a real situation that thrust can be ripped out. That should take the fight out of anyone.
|
|
|
Post by howler on Apr 26, 2018 1:56:20 GMT
I find with a shield it is not difficult to block the adversary’s view of the XIV while placing the shield in a guard position. From there horizontal and vertical cuts can be given, as well as my favourite an upward thrust. In a real situation that thrust can be ripped out. That should take the fight out of anyone. I think thrusting with medium shield would be the XIV strength, as you can still hide the tip behind the shield and achieve great reach, power and control of the 26" blade with each stab. Difficult to block, grab, stop, see that jab coming, and it would be a long time before I couldn't do the "sewing machine" maneuver (stab, stab, stab) due to fatigue.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Apr 26, 2018 12:53:11 GMT
I think thrusting with medium shield would be the XIV strength, I think that you are right.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Apr 26, 2018 13:18:19 GMT
My wife tries to draw me towards the Tequila, but I say ,cobbler stay with your afford’. We won’t be finding any Tequila coming even close to our Westphalian grain, no way, not around here ...To your health, brother. More a Bourbon man myself, but I drink to the sentiment...gulp. I drank bourbon until a sailor introduced me to rum. Being a bourbon man I thought you might get a kick out of this. It's a bit off subject and I would have sent via PM but couldn't find an Attachment button. I really would love to know how they filmed....mp4 (13.07 MB)
|
|
|
Post by nddave on Apr 26, 2018 16:43:34 GMT
I find with a shield it is not difficult to block the adversary’s view of the XIV while placing the shield in a guard position. From there horizontal and vertical cuts can be given, as well as my favourite an upward thrust. In a real situation that thrust can be ripped out. That should take the fight out of anyone. I think thrusting with medium shield would be the XIV strength, as you can still hide the tip behind the shield and achieve great reach, power and control of the 26" blade with each stab. Difficult to block, grab, stop, see that jab coming, and it would be a long time before I couldn't do the "sewing machine" maneuver (stab, stab, stab) due to fatigue. Reminds me of how a Roman would use a Gladius and shield. Having a shield cover you to get inside and then give a few good stabs.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Apr 26, 2018 17:53:15 GMT
I think thrusting with medium shield would be the XIV strength, as you can still hide the tip behind the shield and achieve great reach, power and control of the 26" blade with each stab. Difficult to block, grab, stop, see that jab coming, and it would be a long time before I couldn't do the "sewing machine" maneuver (stab, stab, stab) due to fatigue. Reminds me of how a Roman would use a Gladius and shield. Having a shield cover you to get inside and then give a few good stabs. Exactly.
|
|