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Post by jonnecy on Oct 22, 2015 19:02:21 GMT
Because the interest for cheap Tach is quite low I would think? Or the interest for Tachi in general. Pretty much that. Which is a bit of a shame. Anyway, guess I will just have to spend a little more than expected and buy a Huanuao Tamahagane Tach for around 900$. As long as its looks and quality are on par with Ronin's Dojo Elite series all is well.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 22, 2015 19:04:47 GMT
People put huanuo as one of the best makers in the Chinese sword business. I like the looks of a lot of his stuff, but they are in the uncanny valley of katana for me. It's that point where it's close to the real thing but is still enough different that it doesn't feel right. Another example of that would be kaneie.
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Post by nihontocaster on Oct 22, 2015 19:13:25 GMT
Because the interest for cheap Tach is quite low I would think? Or the interest for Tachi in general. Pretty much that. Which is a bit of a shame. Anyway, guess I will just have to spend a little more than expected and buy a Huanuao Tamahagane Tach for around 900$. As long as its looks and quality are on par with Ronin's Dojo Elite series all is well. The only cheap alternative I found would be really cheap, katanamart.de/scharfe-schwerter-shinken-kaufen-katana-verkaufen-echtes-katana/263-jintachi.htmlNo clue if there is a dealer for that "brand" in North America, guess import would nearly double the price...And well it is really more of a better wallhanger Im afraid. You found the Huanou for 900 Dollars? Sounds like a great price tbh. Would actually rate them a bit above Ronin Elite, even without lamination...Way better fittings, Tsuka.
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Post by zabazagobo on Oct 22, 2015 20:01:33 GMT
How about this idea, you let us know what you are looking for and we'll try and find it for you. Now that's just crazy talk. Haha
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Post by nddave on Oct 22, 2015 20:47:32 GMT
Hi guys, that's an interesting choice. Why is there limited availabilty for blades well made of 1060? That way, we can save costs instead of paying for expensive 'tamehagane' and get the koshirae upgraded. I think a lot of it has to do with the air of katana in general. Everyone wants their katana to be the most authentic and true to form. The issue is that to get a katana true to form you have to go through the expensive and time consuming forging process. Katana are all about the blades, for example you never see European blades offered in simple wood housing. Katana though can still cost in the thousands for that though. Another point on European swords is you never hear them scrutinized for how they're modernly made. For example Albion who's the most prominent maker on the market uses a very not traditional method to craft their blades. In the katana market such practice would be considered sub par or non traditional and in some groups be looked down upon. Even when the modern blade is more durable and sometimes even more attractive than the traditional made one. It's just the way it is I guess or how the enthusiasts pool has made it regarding katana.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 22, 2015 20:54:42 GMT
In the katana market such practice would be considered sub par or non traditional and in some groups be looked down upon. Even when the modern blade is more durable and sometimes even more attractive than the traditional made one. It's just the way it is I guess or how the enthusiasts pool has made it regarding katana. Unfortunately this seems to be the case. I am okay with using modern stuff, but so long as it isn't done to skimp on the product. A katana made with modern steel, modern tools, and modern techniques but still keeps traditional properties (ie, using modern tools to shape the blade but still keeping traditional shape, using modern methods to make tsuba and/or fittings without using cheapo materials in a one size fits all way). I think it evolved this was with katana because it isn't the case that we make quality stuff with modern methods, we make cheap stuff with it. If you do things traditionally, there is a much lower chance of it being a hodgepodge throw together sword. Why spend that much time and effort for something no one will buy? But I'm sure there are examples of people doing that, just that they likely won't last long.
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Post by nddave on Oct 22, 2015 21:48:53 GMT
In the katana market such practice would be considered sub par or non traditional and in some groups be looked down upon. Even when the modern blade is more durable and sometimes even more attractive than the traditional made one. It's just the way it is I guess or how the enthusiasts pool has made it regarding katana. Unfortunately this seems to be the case. I am okay with using modern stuff, but so long as it isn't done to skimp on the product. A katana made with modern steel, modern tools, and modern techniques but still keeps traditional properties (ie, using modern tools to shape the blade but still keeping traditional shape, using modern methods to make tsuba and/or fittings without using cheapo materials in a one size fits all way). I think it evolved this was with katana because it isn't the case that we make quality stuff with modern methods, we make cheap stuff with it. If you do things traditionally, there is a much lower chance of it being a hodgepodge throw together sword. Why spend that much time and effort for something no one will buy? But I'm sure there are examples of people doing that, just that they likely won't last long. If you look it up this pre dates backyard cutters and the modern enthusiasts. The myths and traditions of Nihonto or katana go all the way back to the middle ages of Japanese society. The Japanese have always looked at their swords as art, as opposed to the Europeans who more or less considered them tools. Not that Europeans didn't hold swords in high regard either, it's just a difference in theoretical structure. Sword making is an art form and swords themselves status symbols to both cultures, the differences come in the context of how each culture related to that. In Europe the sword was a consistently evolving weapon, changing profile, use and design almost every hundred years or less. In Japan the sword primarily stayed the same during the time that in Europe the sword had changed from flat profiled cutters(early medieval swords), to more rigid profiled cut and thrusters (later medieval swords), to thin profiled thrusters (rapiers and small swords), to finally curved sabers (modern military). So while the European was constantly evolving their sword to meet the constant wars the Japanese at the same time did the opposite and tried to perfect the art of sword making, thus making it a pure art form in itself. The sword became less of a weapon and more of a status symbol. Something that while still a capable weapon had less focus on it's attributes as a weapon on the battlefield and more of it's attributes as a peice of art. If you've ever noticed, even in reviews a katana is more critiqued for it's aesthetics than it's function. Hamon, grain structure, tsukamaki, profile, geometry and the steel and koshire materials. Doesn't this remind more of someone critiquing a painting or statue than a weapon? That's because it is. Jump back to the modern century and you have clubs and societies that validate and curate Nihonto. You have the strict distinction between a Nihonto and a "Katana", even if that katana is made traditionally by a learned smith qualified to make Nihonto. None of this applies to European swords though or their modern counterparts. Cheap doesn't matter and neither does expensive when it comes to what makes a katana a katana or better yet a Nihonto or Gendaito.
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Post by Kiyoshi on Oct 22, 2015 22:50:29 GMT
I would have to disagree with part of that. A lot of the reasons we care about fittings, grain, geometry, tsukamaki, etc, isn't just looks, we care because they are indicators of quality. A sword with poor quality in those things will be bad in general. If we cared only about tradition and aesthetic, hanwei would be near the bottom of the list for Japanese sword enthusiasts. They are some of the furthest from traditional swords out there but they are designed to be beaters and cutters and by far do it well. Most people here would agree that hanwei makes some of the higher quality products out there despite coming from the mind of the owner instead of tradition. A lot of the qualities people want in a katana, niku, quality fittings, good hamon, add to the combat ability and not aesthetics or cutting ability. I could cut with a machete if I wanted. I could get a hira zukuri blade too. Tradition plays a part, but we care about quality as well.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Oct 22, 2015 23:32:28 GMT
Hi guys, that's an interesting choice. Why is there limited availabilty for blades well made of 1060? That way, we can save costs instead of paying for expensive 'tamehagane' and get the koshirae upgraded. Tachi fittings are very expensive to make (if you want good quality like the fittings Bugei/Hanwei, Kaneie, Huanuo etc. use) and there isn't much demand for them. Everyone just wants a katana. So you most likely don't want to put 500€ fittings to 100€ blade. Of course you can get 50€ alloy tachi fittings and fit them to 100€ 1060 TH blade. They need a lot of markup in tachi price to make up the small production runs. To be honest, I wouldn't buy that Huanuo tachi, the fittings on it look pretty bad in my opinion. They look bit cheap as they are bit crudely finished. Of course I know that comments like that will be bit snobbish but the quality on those fittings isn't too high. I can take some close ups on the fittings on the old Bugei and the difference is noticeable. When you compare them to good Japanese fittings the difference will be huge. Even though blade is the most important part of the sword, you'll still need proper housing for it to be perfectly usable. Koshirae wears in use and over the years and historically tsuka & saya were replaced/fixed when needed. There are very few surviving pre-Edo koshirae, because elements will wear out koshirae. In most cases the koshirae for old swords will be much much newer than the blade itself. You can get very cheap 50-200$ cutters that cut really well, at least well enough for average use. As you can get a good cutting sword for that price it will be hard to comment it too negatively. Similar to H/T series, they are great bang for a buck. I think there will be difference criteria for a sword that costs 150$ and for one that costs 1500$. Like I will put down Huanuo fittings but I wont critique those alloy fittings on that 100€ YarinoHanzo tachi. They are perfectly reasonable for the price and I've seen multiple makers using the same fittings for swords in 100-300€ range.
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Post by greatsaiyaman888 on Oct 23, 2015 0:36:16 GMT
I agree with staying away from those cheap alloy fittings. They may look fancy on pictures but they are really cheap and cost $2. I havn't an issue myself getting a $100 well made chinatana and spending $500 on getting the full koshirae, saya etc properly done by some of the customisers on this forum.
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Post by jonnecy on Oct 23, 2015 19:15:50 GMT
Alright guys, thanks a lot for all the input and advice!
As it stands now I have decided not to buy a tachi for now and spend some more time trying to find a really decent one (which of course is going to cost at least around 1,5k) and instead focus my immediate attention on other blades. I would rather buy a tachi that is decent overall than buying one that has bad fittings (the horror) or cheap koshirae.
Also, it has been interesting reading through your discussions of vendors and the state of the sword market;)
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Post by nihontocaster on Oct 24, 2015 6:01:05 GMT
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Oct 24, 2015 6:20:30 GMT
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Post by jonnecy on Oct 24, 2015 8:07:21 GMT
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Post by jonnecy on Oct 24, 2015 8:08:43 GMT
Yes, the koshirae looks a bit...well; but I can always customize those myself. Thanks for the link, I will put this one on my watch list!
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