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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 28, 2008 18:36:48 GMT
I stumbled into this on youtube. I wonder what movie it's from? Interesting...
Sword vs. Axe
This one isn't very clear, but kind of interesting none the less.
Varangian Longaxe
And lastly... I think this is my favorite to watch repeatedly.
Historical Fencing video from Russia
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Post by rammstein on Apr 28, 2008 22:50:53 GMT
Sword guy in the first video is sloooooow ;D
Thanks for posting!
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 29, 2008 2:20:36 GMT
Sword guy in the first video is sloooooow ;D Thanks for posting! Yeah... but he HAD just been chased all the way up a mountain until it looked like he was completely exhausted. And you're welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2008 10:26:34 GMT
WMA? Where?
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 29, 2008 17:52:50 GMT
WMA? Where? VY, Out of curiousity, what makes something "WMA" for you? This hits on a subject that interests me greatly, as it relates to other unrelated areas of study. The first is just something from a movie. The second is Viking-era mock combat from Russia, and the third is stage entertainment. Does that exclude them from depicting a western martial art?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2008 23:36:03 GMT
A lot of Karate and Tae-kwon-Do stuff, as well as Kung Fu is no more nor less martial than what Shooter posted. I, just two days ago, did an Aikido demo at a local junior college as part of their 'Asian Fest'. There were 8 or 9 different martial arts schools(of various styles) that performed. Most of what I saw looked even poorer choreography than in the first movie with the Axe guy that really didn't like that Sword-Guy.
"Western" martial arts to me are just like "Martial Arts that are not from Southeast Asia"(Japan, China, Korea, etc.). Which is why I tend to further specify by saying "European Martial Arts" or even more specifically 'Liechtenauer's Longsword' or "Meyer's Rapier" or whatnot. Which is no different than saying 'Yagyu Ryu' or 'Shinto Muso Ryu'.
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 30, 2008 5:16:19 GMT
The reason I ask is that I have a "fighting skills" focus as opposed to the "art" side of things. I realize the difference between an art form and a down-and-dirty skill. And I appreciate both. I just have a hard time knowing where to draw the line. So I ask the above question in an attempt to find out what the rest of you think, so I can help myself come to some more firm conclusions.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Apr 30, 2008 5:22:26 GMT
if it works it's a fighting skill ....... if you look good doing it than it's art ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2008 12:20:51 GMT
Hey ShooterMike, The reason for my slightly tongue-in-cheek post is because of some elements that seem more stagecombaty than martial art (I interpret this in the martial - warlike - sense) as to my perception there was a bit of showy/unnecessary spinning, whaling on shields with swords, very simple and vulnerable/risky (or absent when the opportunity presented) 'blocks' to attacks etc. The clips seemed to me to lack the movement, intent and timing I would associate with an effective combat style. There were also so many opportunities that I could see for hand/wrist/forearm cuts in the sword vs axe that were not taken I was almost taken to crying out at my screen 'WHY?!?'. My observations pretty much just echo your comments about movie/entertainment stuff... I perceive this more of an acting skill or sport than a martial art. I appreciate there will be things like kicking and shield bashing (down and dirty!) in a real fight but when the opportunity presents itself and in my own limited experiences with swordplay (unarmoured, though) the ones demonstrated looked like they could have been easily voided/counterattacked.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2008 18:34:50 GMT
So do a lot of Karate/Taekwondo/Kung Fu forms.
The fact of the matter is, they're all still martial arts, just as hammers and screwdrivers are both tools. Obviously a screwdriver will put in screws more efficiently than a hammer, though I'm sure you could still hammer in a screw. A hammer on the other hand will put in nails quite a bit better than a screwdriver will. But with enough patience and stubbornness, you could probably put in a nail with a screwdriver.
They're both effective tools. They both can be used to fasten pieces of wood or whatnot together so as not to fall apart, and therefore, both can be used to build things - Like houses.
I think that just because you train an art not to fight with it doesn't make it any less of a martial art. I personally don't train that way, but it's no less valid a reason for training. The movements themselves still descend from those used to kill, so if that's where you draw then line, then it's still martial, but more a vestigial form of it.
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Post by YlliwCir on Apr 30, 2008 19:35:06 GMT
I think that first vid is a good example of "don't run, you'll just die tired". As to fighting skill, I'll second SB's op, if it works it's a skill.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2008 20:36:42 GMT
So do a lot of Karate/Taekwondo/Kung Fu forms. The fact of the matter is, they're all still martial arts I know some martial artists who would argue strongly that most of those are sports... Adam - would you regard boxing, wrestling, fencing (modern/olympic) or SCA as martial arts or sports? I think that just because you train an art not to fight with it doesn't make it any less of a martial art. I personally don't train that way, but it's no less valid a reason for training. Please note that I didn't make the accusation that they are not worth doing, in fact I did label them as skills! I would argue that training not to fight would make arts like these less martial.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2008 22:15:48 GMT
I don't believe that 'Martial Arts' and 'Sports' are mutually exclusive categories.
Some people train Judo more for the 'martial art' aspect of it, others train more for the competition or 'sport' aspect of it. Same with all those other arts/sports you listed.
This is not to say that all martial arts are sports any more than all sports are martial arts. But many can fall into both categories.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2008 7:15:51 GMT
Fair enough mate, thanks for your opinion.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2008 7:54:08 GMT
As to the issue of Martial Arts vs Fighting Skills I think "The Samurai Sword" by Yumoto stated that the term Martial Arts arose specifically to loop hole the governmental restrictions on practicing fighting skills in post war Japan.
Ultimately, I suppose it is up to the individual to decide what the specific training means to him or her. If one takes up boxing with the intent to be able to defend himself, then it is a fighting skill, but one taking up karate just to get into shape might feel differently about what they are doing.
As for me, I feel martial arts is about fighting skills first...whether it is ever needed or not. I look at it this way, if a guy picks up a stick and practices every day just to hit a specific target with it (intending to use this skill as self defense) then the development of that skill is a martial art in its own right. I am with Shooter and Adam in that I feel too many out there feel that anything non-Asian cannot be a martial art. I guess it stems from the continued belief that European swordsmen merely bashed and hacked on the battlefield with no development or care of developing their skills. As we have been finding out, that is not the case.
Thanks for the videos. I just like watching any sword videos whether theatrical, practice or cutting videos.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2008 9:43:18 GMT
If one takes up boxing with the intent to be able to defend himself, then it is a fighting skill For a slightly different opinion... Way back when my father took up boxing (his father was quite the amateur boxer, so I hear) self defence was certainly on the list of priorities and I have heard several stories of his engagement in fisticuffs for his own protection and in the ring (the speed of his hands is really quite something and I have no reason to doubt his word). I have asked him recently and he has always thought of boxing as a sport and not a martial art.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2008 18:42:27 GMT
WELL HE IS WRONG!!!! Just kidding. I had to take a crack at some of the folks that get hot under the collar at the slightest thing..haha. I personally do not see the point in internet fighting.
Anyway - I know what you mean vy. The great thing about martial arts is its ability to serve double duty. I doubt that sword skills are of great modern relevance, but then again, if you are walking with a cane or walking stick and get attacked, those very skills can make one a force to be reckoned with. That is why I say all MA whether western or eastern, is as relevant as any other.
Funny story: We do not think of Billy Blanks Tae-bo as a martial art, but guess again- We got a call to a residence one night from a histerical lady saying she had been attacked by her ex-boyfriend. When we got there we found the guy laying on the ground all beaten and bloddied. It turned out that he had come to the door asking to talk. She let him in and he suddenly pushed her back against the counter. She pushed him back and began kicking the crap out of him using her tae-bo kicks and when he doubled over she reached back and grabbed the first weapon she could get her hands on...an old circular dial telephone. She beat the snot out of him with it and knocked him out. It was great!
I learned that any skills can be of some use in the right circumstances.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2008 22:02:05 GMT
Great story!
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