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Post by Upasaka on Sept 15, 2015 16:16:32 GMT
Hi everyone,
I sometimes practice at a local park in Chinatown. Since bringing real weapons to a public park can have dire consequences (like spending the night at the police precinct…), I’ve been looking around for a decent practice gim3. So far I’ve been using a folding sword, which is half-way decent (made of metal), but definitely lacks a real sword feeling. I am looking for the following specs:
1) High-carbon steel.
2) Moderate weight, 1.5 to 2 lbs.
3) Stiff or almost stiff blade (no “wushu steel” crap).
4) Full tang (if possible).
5) Ideally under $100, but will go slightly higher for the right piece. (Trying to save $ for a real historical gim3.)
The style/ period does not matter. I have so far considered the following items:
www.ebay.com/itm/301594102659?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
www.ebay.com/itm/301361687455?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I am waiting to hear from the seller whether the second piece can be ordered unsharpened. While both swords are supposedly “hand-made” 1050 steel, only the latter exhibits folding patterns (possibly fake?). Does anyone know the seller? Which blade design is more authentic for the Hon3 period? Any general thoughts?
As an alternative, I also considered:
www.wle.com/products/W023HQ.html
www.wle.com/product5760.html
www.wle.com/products/12AnimalSword.html
The first two are similar, except for the blade thickness and wood. I pretty much eliminated the second sword because it exceeds my weight limit of 2 lbs. Now, here’s my issue with WLE... They describe these swords as “high carbon stainless steel”. So I called to find out what exactly they mean. Terry was VERY helpful and even weighted the swords on the spot. I was also told the steel is “a balance of high-carbon and stainless to make the sword not rust”. I have personally never had experience with such material and definitely DO NOT want a stainless steel sword. But these are classified by WLE as high-carbon, hand-forged by Shen family. Does anyone know this particular type of hybrid steel? Shen family sword makers?
I am a bit skeptical because last year I spent $130 (with shipping) on this dou1:
www.wle.com/products/CombatSteelBroadsword.html
I was thoroughly disappointed! The blade is typical for MUCH cheaper commercial swords (no trace of folding pattern); very thin, sheet-like brass fittings; very cheap (I mean VERY cheap!), unfinished wood handle; and super (again, I mean SUPER) crappy, cheap scabbard. If (as advertised by WLE) this sword is “much higher grade steel”, then the rest of their inventory must be really poor! Quality-wise, this dou1 cannot EVEN REMOTELY COMPARE (can’t overstate this point!) to this one I purchased from Kult of Athena for just twenty bucks more:
www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AC0421&name=Iron+Tiger+Forge+Liuyedao
I am very impressed with this sword, especially given the price!
While I need a practice gim3 for the park, I do not want to spend $80-140 for a crappy toy-sword. I’d rather put the $ toward the antique piece I hope to be getting soon. Any advice or comments? I appreciate all!
Thanks!
Kamil
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 15, 2015 20:57:52 GMT
If they come sharp, it isn't hard to blunten them yourself. Neither blade design is authentic. Should have more taper, no fuller. Guard is in a style usually done in jade, but these are metal. (Hilt isn't so authentic either - original hilts I've seen aren't cylindrical. But try to find a repro with a non-cylindrical hilt.) I'd avoid as a practice sword. Mostly because style/period does matter to me. Using these as practice swords for Ming/Qing jian styles would be like using a Roman gladius for I.33. They describe these swords as “high carbon stainless steel”. So I called to find out what exactly they mean. Terry was VERY helpful and even weighted the swords on the spot. I was also told the steel is “a balance of high-carbon and stainless to make the sword not rust”. I have personally never had experience with such material and definitely DO NOT want a stainless steel sword. But these are classified by WLE as high-carbon, hand-forged by Shen family. Does anyone know this particular type of hybrid steel? Not a hybrid steel; just a stainless steel with enough carbon to be "high carbon". High-carbon stainless steels are common knife steels. 420HC, 440A, 440B, 440C are typical (420J2 isn't high carbon). 420HC and 440A are OK for swords, with reasonable and not too demanding heat treatment. Not great, since you'll get the hardness of something like 1050 and the toughness of something like 1095. But good corrosion resistance. Good steel for a blunt practice sword (unless you want to hit a pell with it, maybe). If you want to avoid stainless steel on principle, avoid, but there's no functional reason to avoid it. |
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Post by Upasaka on Sept 18, 2015 6:33:53 GMT
Timo,
First, I want to mention how impressed I am with your knowledge of Chinese swords! Thank you for all of your contributions. Many of us have benefited greatly!
As for the sword, I completely agree with your distinction between Hon3 and Ming4/Cing1 periods. I would not use a Hon3 sword to perform a form of the much later styles. Roman analogy works very well. However, for practice, I am willing to overlook this detail. As a matter of fact, I am now thinking whether I should consider getting one of each…
Is this blade more in line with the historical style?:
www.ebay.com/itm/171851463562?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
How about the 8-sides?:
www.ebay.com/itm/Chinese-han-jian-sword-pattern-steel-Eight-sides-blade-black-wood-scabbard-alloy-/151794520137?hash=item2357a89049
The only contact I will make is with other weapons (swords, staff, etc.) during weapon sparring forms.
And also, any thoughts on the WLE swords from my previous post?
Thanks so much, once again!
Kamil
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 18, 2015 12:38:17 GMT
These ones are more historical. The blades I've been able to see clear cross-sections for have been very diamond. We had a discussion not so long ago about Han jian cross-sections; there are some blades in Iron and Steel Swords of China that are supposed to be hexagonal and octagonal section, but I don't know the details of the cross-sections. There certainly were bronze jian with cross-sections like the 8-sides one you link. They look OK for the price. From the first seller, you can find another jian at twice the price with a good-looking robust tang: www.ebay.com/itm/Hand-Forge-Chinese-Sword-Han-Jian-Pattern-Steel-Razor-Sharp-Alloy-Fitting-Ebony-/171851459239The WLE swords might be OK for the price. I'm fussy about jian balance, and I don't know how these ones handle. I'd have more confidence in the Hanwei jian: www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH2008&name=Hanwei+Practical+Tai+Chi+Swordwhich is about the same weight as the first WLE jian. Too light for me, I think. In principle, this kind of weight (or even lighter, perhaps under 1lb) is OK for a sword of this size, but it's very light for a full-length jian. (I've seen thin-bladed 27" blade twin jian of about 1lb each, but probably mid 20th century.) But if you're after light, sure, why not. Either the WLE or the Hanwei practical. The 3rd WLE sword is pretty ugly IMO, but the specs look OK. I'd be happier with this weight than the 1st one as a practice jian. |
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Post by Upasaka on Sept 20, 2015 20:32:12 GMT
Timo, I totally agree with your points. 1lb 4oz is also too light for me. I’m looking for something between 1.5-2lbs (ideally closer to 2lbs). The 12 animals from WLE seems just right. I considered the Hanwei, but just can’t stand the plastic handle. Also looked at the Adam Hsu wooden handle, but decided against it because of the light weight. At this point I think I’m going to order both swords from WLE, make my choice when they arrive, and send the other one back. Thanks to your advice, I decided not to get the Hon3 gim3 for now. You mentioned tapered design and I noticed that the Iron Tiger Forge Hon3 swords from Kult of Athena (with whom I had a good experience) are indeed diamond and tapered. They are also a lot more expensive! I decided it’s better to save the cash and put it toward something more historically accurate from a source I already know. Speaking of KoA, I am really curious what you think (from a strictly historical perspective) of the Four Noble Plants I have already purchased: www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AC0716&name=Iron+Tiger+Forge+Noble+Plants+JianI love the plants symbolism and the sword is 100% solid. However, I am also wondering about the design. From my very limited understanding it resembles a Hon3 sword and definitely has that “battlefield” feeling. Is there a historical basis for the plants design or just a figment of someone’s creative imagination? Possibly from the period between the Hon3 and Tong4 Dynasties? I would love to hear your analysis. Similarly, for the 12 Animals from WLE? Thanks, Kamil |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 20, 2015 21:29:38 GMT
I haven't seen historical precedent for the Noble Plants jian. As for decorated jian in general, plain fittings (iron or bronze on older swords, and we also see brass on newer ones) are common. However, ornamentation/decorations are common. The most common are the dragon-face guard (which dates back to the Song, if not earlier): www.wle.com/products/WGL181.htmlarmsandantiques.com/19th-c-chinese-taoist-shuangjian-swords-with-bagua-or-trigram-pommel-cs1011(interesting pommel on this last one), the common pattern on short jian: www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3882and the Seven Stars on the blade. Dragons also appear in other forms on guards, and on scabbard mounts, and on blades: www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s1380_full.htmlwww.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s1708_full.htmlwww.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s1327_full.html(note Seven Stars on the last one). The ones with heavily decorated blades are usually for Daoist ritual. The guard on the WLE 12 Animals jian is historical enough. Twin dragons forming the branches of the guard is out there on old swords. I don't know if this is a copy of an old guard, but it's OK. I haven't seen old scabbard mounts in this style. The idea of the 12 animals on the sword blade or the scabbard is OK (but I've never seen an example). If I wanted a sword to be as historical as possible for the budget, I'd get something else. I'd go either plain or dragon face (and preferably iron/steel or brass fittings, rather than zinc alloy). For something more ornate than plain or dragon face, WLE have some good historical patterns: www.wle.com/big-dragon-sword-details.htmlThe big question is whether or not they have a good historical pattern in the weight that you want. For a practice sword, if the 12 Animals is the right weight, and the others aren't, I'd get it. |
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Post by Upasaka on Oct 4, 2015 3:49:13 GMT
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 4, 2015 9:38:30 GMT
For the first 3, I'd pick the first one, with brass rather than zinc-aluminium fittings. I don't know what the blades looked like. The Tang blades I've seen have been dao blades, either spear-pointed with sharpened false edge near the tip, or the classic chisel-tip kiriha-zukuri blade. Tang jian blades, I don't know. But probably not two fullers like the first one. Can't go wrong with diamond. Fittings and blades on #2 and #3 look good, except for being zinc-aluminium (but that's what you get at that price). I've bought from lqyangu/lqsword (I think they're the same), with no problems.
As for #4 and #5, they're probably OK for the price. I'd want to know weight and balance.
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Post by Upasaka on Oct 15, 2015 17:15:16 GMT
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 15, 2015 20:42:00 GMT
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Post by Taiwandeutscher on Oct 16, 2015 2:09:05 GMT
OT: Why do you guys prefer diamond blades? Didn't some experts (Jin Swords?) show that apple seed blades do work much better in contact with another blade? And those should also be closer to antiques, no?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 16, 2015 3:53:08 GMT
Diamond-section as the overall cross-section (as opposed to various fullered cross-sections in this particular case). Ideally, one would have apple-seed edges, rather than flat grid all the way to the edge, but this is the same whether the overall cross-section is diamond, lenticular, fullered, or whatever.
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