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Post by tja on Sept 12, 2015 4:44:50 GMT
Hello all!
I'm looking into the possibility of buying my first sharp sword and am curious about the British P1821 Light Cavalry Sabre with the Wilkinson blade.
From the reproduction side of things, some searching around has led me to believe that my only option is the British 1845 Wilkinson Light Cavalry Saber by Univeral Swords from KOA (http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=USS146&name=British+1845+Wilkinson+Light+Cavalry+Saber Universal Swords)from KOA. Can anyone shed any light on the quality of this reproduction? Even then, it's out of stock and back ordered. There also seem to be complaints in general about how the Indian reproduction swords feel in hand, possibly due to poor distal taper, but apparently certain models are better than others, so any chance that this is one of the "good" ones?
The other option would be to buy an antique, but I have no experience with such things: how much would such a sword normally sell for, including a scabbard, assuming a reasonably good and functional condition (no pitting on the blade, no looseness in the hilt etc)? Where should I look? oldswords.com?
Could anyone offer some insights? Thanks!
-TJA
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Post by Dave Kelly on Sept 14, 2015 1:24:14 GMT
Hi Welcome to SBG: Where to begin? Do you want an officers sword or and enlisted sword. Officer swords tend to be elegant and downsized compared to trooper swords. Also more expensive. Officer weapons weigh around 2 lbs while enlisted swords tend towards 2.5 lbs. Technically the "Wilkinson" bladed weapon didn't come into being until 1845. If you are determined to have a Wilkinson assignation on your blade then you need to look in the 1845 direction for Officer swords. Any replica I can think of will give you some sort of distortion of the historical standard as a cost avoidance measure. The lighter a sword is the less those deviations will matter in your practice. Where to shop: www.fioredeiliberi.org/antique-swords-uk/for-sale/Matt Easton is a fencing master and selles antique sabers on the side. Lots of average grade fairly inexpensive models. Ebay.comCan be a minefield, but shopping with skepticism and caution and you can do well. johnathonbarrett.comThis is a pricey top end antiques dealer. Probably won't want to shop there, but good place to look at fine conditioned pieces and make a wish... ;) Sword Forum International is the real home of British sword geekdom. If you get serious about antique sabers, you can't bat them. No time for a mind dump. Ask some questions to bleed more out. :)
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Post by tja on Sept 15, 2015 19:43:13 GMT
Hi Dave, Thanks for your reply!
1. I didn't realize that SFI was such a haven for British sword geekdom! 2. Thank you for the links! The last one is indeed fun to look at and wish =) 3. I'm sad to hear that there are no good reproductions, alas. 4. I didn't realize that officer swords were smaller than the trooper ones! That's definitely interesting. Between 2-2.5 lbs, I'd probably prefer something closer to 2.5, but other than that I don't think I have a preference. 5. An actual Wilkinson would be nice! Although I'd settle for a non-Wilkinson if need be.
Questions! 1. Are there any other patterns with a similar blade to the "1845" for Light Cavalry? My limited understanding is that the 1821 Heavy Cavalry, 1853 Cavalry, and the 1864 Cavalry saber are similar. (As an aside, did the 1864 have a symmetrical hilt?) 2. Out of curiosity: is there anyone that makes custom sabers that handle well?
Cheers, TJA
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 15, 2015 21:25:29 GMT
I don't know the typical weight of the 1821 fullered swords (the pipebacks are usually under 2lbs), but the 1853/1864 was significantly heavier.
The 1853 and 1864 share the same blade. AFAIK, the 1864 hilt is symmetric. Wasn't a popular hilt, since the edges weren't rolled and it cause more wear on uniforms. Supposed to be 2lb, 7oz, so if you want about 2.5lbs, that's the blade to go for. The 1882 was lighter, the 1885 about the same (2lb 6oz), and the 1890 heavier (2lb 9oz). I wouldn't call the 2.5lb ones "well handling". They're OK for their type, but the 1890 is a bit of a pig (though to be fair, mibne is a bit heavier than spec).
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Post by Dave Kelly on Sept 15, 2015 23:49:13 GMT
s747.photobucket.com/user/kelly1863/library/British%20P1853%20Cav%20Saber%20Universal%20comparison?sort=4&page=1Some photos comparing the original P1853 Enlisted Cav Sabre with 2 replicas. If you are looking for a weapon to sharpen and play with the Universal 1853 sharpened from KoA will give you a Cavalry piece that is within the general parameters of the original for weight and handling. As you can see by the chart there, they did a lot of jiggling to get to that final product. The original P1821 and the P1853/64 enlisted cavs use the same 35x1.25 in blade. The 53 got a stronger full tang and guard. The 64 got a cup hilt.
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Post by Afoo on Sept 16, 2015 2:39:03 GMT
They have a munitions grate 1853 available in the ~130 dollar range if I remember correctly
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Post by Dave Kelly on Sept 16, 2015 10:20:40 GMT
They have a munitions grate 1853 available in the ~130 dollar range if I remember correctly KoA will not sharpen munitions grade swords, if that is a consideration in purchase. There are people here that provide sharpening service as an option.
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Post by tja on Sept 17, 2015 3:49:02 GMT
@timo: Thank you for the weights! Psycho V: Thank you for the link! The photos (and charts) were extremely helpful. Afoo: I wasn't aware of the existence of "munitions grade" arms at KoA, interesting... the description does give me pause though, so it might not be right for me. Thanks anyways though! =) As for as the reproductions go, I noticed today that the Pooley Sword description for the (modern) Royal Artillery Officer's Sword is that it's based of the 1822 Light Cavalry sword. Sadly, a little bit of extra research seemed to reveal that it's still not quite the same, being narrower in the hilt by roughly 1/4 of an inch. Alas! I've started looking into antique swords I think =) But I'm also keeping an eye on KoA as having a test cutter could be fun.
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Post by aronk on Sept 21, 2015 5:37:16 GMT
I recommend checking out Matt Easton's shop for British sabres. Matt is all but guaranteed to be honest, and he prices fairly.
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Post by Afoo on Sept 21, 2015 16:47:23 GMT
Military Heritage also has an 1821/1822 repro which looks different from the "1845 Wilkinson" offered from KoA. The blade has different markings and has different dimensions. It is undoubtedly a smaller infantry version (artillery or rifles) base don the stats, rather than the full length trooper version. However, could be promising. I have been asking for more information about it from MH for over a month, but have not received a single reply (asides from the usual automated greeting), so not sure what is going on. If I do get it, I'll let you know how its like. On the note about the KoA munitions grade stuff - I had a Munitions Grade sword from them a while back. I don't do test cutting, but I really did not see why the sword could not be sharpened - there was some waviness to the blade, but nothing I would have noticed had I not been informed it was a munitions grade. I would personally have no issues sharpening it and cutting with it had I so desired. Pictures of the "Munitions Grade" Russian Dragoon Saber here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/42449/update-universal-munitions-russian-dragoon
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Post by tja on Sept 25, 2015 15:55:49 GMT
aronk: Thanks for the recommendation =) Afoo: Oh sharp eye: interesting to hear that the MH is a different one from the one listed at KoA! Thanks! If you do hear back from MH, that would be great =) And thanks for sharing your experience regarding the munitions grade KoA stuff!
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