Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Aug 1, 2015 5:33:12 GMT
In the very few short hours that I have owned a nihonto, I have learned lots of things. I didn't expect to learn so much so fast, but I really did.
1. Nihonto can be thin. VERY thin. I've never seen a Japanese style sword this thin. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's thin. If it doesn't turn out the way I was hoping, it will at least make a great trick cutting sword
2. Nihonto can be very hard. I do believe this one is actually DH. I can file all day on the steel closer to the shinogi, but the ha will skate my file. Somehow, I didn't expect tamahagane to actually get that hard. It can. And it is.
3. If left uncared for, the hada in the steel is a trap for corrosion. I'm noticing corrosion patterns that seem like they follow along what would be the hada of the steel. I'm doing a window polish to see what's in there, but I haven't got past the corrosion and pitting enough to really see what's down in there.
4. Fubari is motherf%#@ing Bull@!$%. Have you ever tried to keep the geometry correct on a sword with fumbari? It's literally impossible. This sword isn't worth anything, so that garbage is getting polished out. Sorry, fans of fumbari. It's gotta go.
5. The DH of Japanese styled swords lives up to it's name. The edge skates a file, but I got this blade with a slight bend in it. So, like anyone else in the world with a bent sword, I bent it back over my leg. Took about 10 seconds.
6. I can't say with any level of certainty, but I'm pretty sure the last person to "clean up" this sword was not a toshigi. In the even that they were, they obviously care nothing about crisp geometry. It may have had geometry at one time, but it honestly looks like someone rubbed it with steel wool.
Well, there are my lessons in nihonto thus far. Any comments?
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 1, 2015 6:53:16 GMT
My only comment would be on the tamahagane. In a televised interview (will look for it later), Yoshindo Yoshihara said that the ideal tamahagane would be around 1.3% carbon. That's far more than the usual 0.95 in 1095. What comes close to that is W2 which is 1.5% IIRC.
That means Nihonto get far harder than most contemporary steel. Again, I'll look for the thread, but someone did a HRC test on several Viking age and Medieval blades and found that the only swords that came close to Nihonto in terms of average hardness of the edge were the Ulfbherts. I think the testing even showed an edge of 65+ on certain katana which is amazing if you think about the technology they had back then. Of course, they should have tested Chinese and SE Asian swords since they also have the reputation of having a very hard edge (antique kris for example have reached 65+ ratings at the edges as well).
But yeah, I'd be terrified of using a $4k plus sword that might chip or snap on a bad cut for being way too hard.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Aug 1, 2015 6:59:29 GMT
I definitely didn't pay $4K for this one.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 1, 2015 7:14:27 GMT
What sword do you have?
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Aug 1, 2015 7:16:34 GMT
The "unknown old nihonto" that Matt Jensen had for sale.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 1, 2015 9:56:07 GMT
My only comment would be on the tamahagane. In a televised interview (will look for it later), Yoshindo Yoshihara said that the ideal tamahagane would be around 1.3% carbon. That's far more than the usual 0.95 in 1095. What comes close to that is W2 which is 1.5% IIRC. The over 1% carbon content that is said to be ideal for tamahagane is for the metal straight out of the tatara. As the steel is hammered and folded etc, it loses carbon, and about 0.7% is typical for what's left. On old blades. Modern blades are often higher carbon (and this includes non-tamahagane gunto blades). One can get modern Japanese blades with about 1.3% carbon, HRC63 edges, but that's kitchen knives and woodworking tools, and they tend to be rather more chip-prone than you'd want swords to be.
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 1, 2015 10:01:58 GMT
I think he said 0.9% or thereabouts. How about a modern blade made of 1090? Would it lose carbon if folded/forged as well?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 1, 2015 10:09:08 GMT
Hot steel in an oxidising atmosphere loses carbon. Modern folding using a power hammer can be much faster than old style hand-hammering - lose less carbon.
Yes, about 0.9% is normal enough for modern blades.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 1, 2015 14:20:59 GMT
Ah, I kinda remember that one. I couldn't figure out what it was and I don't remember a lot about it. Will be interesting to see pics of it.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 1, 2015 18:07:11 GMT
I want to say "Please don't ruin it " but eh, who am I to tell you what to do? I don't remember the condition it was in already, so for all I know it's already ruined, and just tiring it out further won't detract anything from it. Really need to get my waks out for a polish, curse my poor spending habits...
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Aug 1, 2015 18:28:56 GMT
I want to say "Please don't ruin it " but eh, who am I to tell you what to do? I don't remember the condition it was in already, so for all I know it's already ruined, and just tiring it out further won't detract anything from it. Really need to get my waks out for a polish, curse my poor spending habits... It was in really bad shape. You could probably get some pics of it's condition from Matt. I didn't really save any. He had gotten it to try to polish up as well, but he said he never got around to it. It's condition kept it from being worth anything. Plus, it looks like somebody had already tried taking some steel wool to it. The geometry is VERY rounded off. I don't think me polishing it could ruin it's value after that. I guess it's kind of like spray painting a classic muscle car. It ruins the value, but at least it'll keep it from rusting out. Right?
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 1, 2015 18:47:03 GMT
Eh, depends who you ask. A decent polisher could fix it up properly without sacrificing anything, but it would be pricy. Your plans are essentially to invalidate any chance that it could ever be recovered. When dealing with something that existed before you, it's important to consider what will become of it after you. Unless it's already been deemed as absolutely irreparable or otherwise tired, I'd say let a polisher look at it first. Chris Osborne, David Hofhine, several others could tell you more than I could; I can't even be bothered to look for pictures. At any rate, I'll just assume "it's really that bad" and look the other way.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Aug 1, 2015 18:59:48 GMT
There are two pretty deep chunks missing from the shinogi. There's no way they could ever be polished out. Honestly, I just wanted it to see the activity in the steel and to say I owned a nihonto.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 1, 2015 19:12:57 GMT
I dunno about "no way," there are "miracles" on just about every polisher's page. Unless you're already looking at core steel, there could still be a chance. But that aside, may as well have a real polisher put in a window for you; make sure it's the best part of the blade and all that. Otherwise, sure, have at and post pics and such. I remember how excited I was when I got my first wak, eight years ago I guess it was. I knew it was nothing special and never would be, but it was mine (now) and that was all I needed to know. I was going to get it polished and mounted, it would be amazing...eight years later it's still in the same junk saya it came in, and I'm just glad there's no new rust... My second wak is my preferred of the two now, but of my seven antiques (two wakizashi, three afghan blades, an Algerian flyssa, and a French Gras bayonet) the nihonto have taken a back seat; I'm for more fond of the Afghan blades. Still, need to get the two wak's done up right...eventually...
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Aug 1, 2015 19:16:13 GMT
Hey, one of those is a naginata blade mounted as a wak, isn't it? Could you PM me some thickness, width, and other specs on it? I'm interested in trying to make one down the road and was curious about the taper and blade angles.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 1, 2015 19:18:02 GMT
Yeah, one's a naginata naoshi in koshirae, I've got the measurements posted around here, somewhere... Used to have them in my phone, but forgot to back up that app before rooting and lost quite a few lists I'd been keeping. Oh well.
I'll get some things together for a PM in a bit...
Digs has another one, a much nicer one at that. PM him and see if he's got the measurements handy.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Aug 1, 2015 19:45:58 GMT
I'll have to look in to that.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Aug 1, 2015 19:58:56 GMT
Eh, depends who you ask. A decent polisher could fix it up properly without sacrificing anything, but it would be pricy. Your plans are essentially to invalidate any chance that it could ever be recovered. When dealing with something that existed before you, it's important to consider what will become of it after you. Unless it's already been deemed as absolutely irreparable or otherwise tired, I'd say let a polisher look at it first. Chris Osborne, David Hofhine, several others could tell you more than I could; I can't even be bothered to look for pictures. At any rate, I'll just assume "it's really that bad" and look the other way. One thing to consider when chosing a togishi is how long a wait will it take to get any work done... I know David Hofhine has a wait time of 18 months... best to get on a waiting list. As for dimensions, here's a pic with my Shinto katana's dimensions, weighing in at 2 lbs 12 oz or 1.241 kg in full koshirae (incorrectly listed as a ShinShinto... I sent it to the NHTK-NPO shinsa in 2014 and had it judged to be a Shinto from the Enpo Era).
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 1, 2015 20:32:55 GMT
Guess I'll throw my measurements in here, then. First, some pics of the pair: Taken on my phone, cropped, then emailed to myself; forgot to rotate, and for some reason my computer is telling me the photos are write-protected, and can't be rotated. Whatever. (Edit: Just realized the price tag snuck into a few shots, so disclaimer: that is not what I paid. ) As for measurements... Shinogi-zukuri Nagasa - 17.75" Nakago - 5.5" Motokasane - 0.25" at mune, 0.27" at shinogi Sakikasane - 0.18" at mune, 0.19" at shinogi Motohaba - 1.08" Sakihaba - 0.82" Kissaki - 1.28" Weight - 14.7oz (bare) Naginata Naoshi Nagasa - 18" Nakago - 5.5" Motokasane - 0.27" at mune, 0.31" at shinogi Sakikasane - 0.17" (mesured only where shinogi meets mune, because unokubi) Motohaba - 1.07" Sakihaba - I have no idea. Very subtle, hard to pinpoint where the "kissaki" starts due to geometry. Kissaki - See: Sakihaba Weight - 15.7oz Transitional Section ("Unokubi part" or where the mune begins its taper) - 2.8" from munemachi, for about 1.5". Thickness of mune down to 0.08" and begins "swelling" again about 2.5" from the tip, peaking about 1" from out from tapering to the point. I like Digs' better, and have seen others that are in better shape, but money and all that... I think John Smith (genlee something-or-other here) forged a naginata a while back, might even ask him about it.
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