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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2015 22:38:03 GMT
Hello, since all my experience is with Norse/Anglo blades I seek any information from my more knowledgeable fellow collectors.
I recently acquired this very large Jian, about 43 inches long and weighs in at 2.9 pounds. When I got it, it was listed as a used item from China. I know it isn't a valuable antique since it has brother, in different wrap on Ioffer for $999. It has a real folded blade and handles well to me, but I am used to type X blades. Any information on the maker would be appreciated, or any other comments.
Regards Robert    |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 11, 2015 22:59:55 GMT
Modern Chinese fake. Sometimes these have really good blades (just over-etched for a high-contrast pattern), well heat treated sanmei. But sometimes the blades aren't heat treated. Hilt construction can vary from perfectly sound through to wallhanger. Balance can vary from good to crowbar.
If you found a good one at a good price, that's a nice find.
I don't know of historical precedent for these fittings. I'd call it a fantasy sword.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2015 15:49:58 GMT
Thank you Timo for the information. From recently looking at ebay, it seems nearly all Chinese swords for sale are modern copies.
I have found two sellers and will try to ask them, just why this item is so expensive in their stores. One on Ioffer has it for $1000, probably their most expensive sword and I see another has just sold for over $800. I would especially like to find out about the blade. Both sellers are well regarded. I quess, in the western world the difference between an Albion and a Windlass.
Probably never find out, but thanks for the information.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Jul 13, 2015 3:10:03 GMT
You can see by the cross section that it is certainly no older than Qing Dynasty. Older jian than that were clamshell or octagonal cross sections.
The fittings certainly don't look like any Chinese creatures I can identify, but do look somewhat Burmese or Siamese (I am by no means an expert on any of the three)
Definitely an enhanced grain.
And that looks like a pommel nut.
It's pretty, though.
Absolutely, at a grand, I wouldn't be buying it without pictures of it disassembled, at the least. I want to see the tang.
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Post by AlvaroWang on Jul 14, 2015 4:39:18 GMT
From what thomas chen has on his website, this type of cross section appeared as soon as the warring states, though I am not saying this blade is as old.
Even though I've never seen them in this style, snakes and these big feline-ish animals are not that rare on chinese culture. Is it a skull at the pommel?
The writings on the blade read: Twin Snake Sword, written in standard script, though the word snake is a little funny looking here.
Overall the whole sword strikes to me as a little off, but what do I know…
Now, a little off topic…
As I picture ancient China, there would be basically two instances to making swords. One is as a status symbol and the other as a simple killing tool to arm soldiers.
If it was made as a killing tool to peasants or soldiers, there would be no reason to ornate it with animals and these sort of things.
If it was made as a status symbol, I would understand better looking fittings.
But, why would you ornate a sword with a snake? As I understand the snake was some sort of divine entity because of the mostly rural environment simple men lived, but I wonder if a super general or a noble of some sort would be pleased to have a sword ornamented with a symbol of lower classes. Could it be the case of highly ornamented swords with snakes be some sort of indication of falsification?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 14, 2015 6:13:26 GMT
Yes, diamond-section is seen really early. (Also seen on early Central Asian double-edged steel swords which look rather like Warring States/Han jian.) Used continuously to the present.
Lenticular cross-sections are also really early, with Warring States examples.
Any references for old octagonal cross-section jian? (Indeed, any cross-sections other than diamond and lenticular.)
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Post by AlvaroWang on Jul 14, 2015 16:06:41 GMT
According to Thomas Chen, octagonal cross section were used in steel and bronze jian spanning from the Warring States Bronze Sword to Han steel swords
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 17:35:14 GMT
The pommel has couple of snakes in the mouth of a tiger on both sides. to answer the question. It is an interesting sword to me, as I know nothing about Chinese swords. So I am especially enjoying this discussion. I never thought it was a valuable antique, but a nice two handed Jian style sword. Since I paid less than the one advertised on Ioffer for $1000 I am happy, just wanted to see what light the experts could shed on it. I don't see how anyone knows what to buy. I see folded blade swords on ebay from $200 to $60,000. With European swords it is much easier to know what you are getting!
Thanks Robert |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 14, 2015 21:49:38 GMT
According to Thomas Chen, octagonal cross section were used in steel and bronze jian spanning from the Warring States Bronze Sword to Han steel swords So I saw when I was looking for any. Haven't seen any steel swords that support that, though. |
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Post by AlvaroWang on Jul 14, 2015 23:48:52 GMT
The pommel has couple of snakes in the mouth of a tiger on both sides. to answer the question. It is an interesting sword to me, as I know nothing about Chinese swords. So I am especially enjoying this discussion. I never thought it was a valuable antique, but a nice two handed Jian style sword. Since I paid less than the one advertised on Ioffer for $1000 I am happy, just wanted to see what light the experts could shed on it. I don't see how anyone knows what to buy. I see folded blade swords on ebay from $200 to $60,000. With European swords it is much easier to know what you are getting!
Thanks Robert Indeed it is a nice looking sword! Oh, now that you said I realize it is indeed a tiger, the hand guard got an animal with a distinctive "王" on its forehead, that usually refers to tigers |
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Post by AlvaroWang on Jul 14, 2015 23:51:01 GMT
According to Thomas Chen, octagonal cross section were used in steel and bronze jian spanning from the Warring States Bronze Sword to Han steel swords So I saw when I was looking for any. Haven't seen any steel swords that support that, though. I did a quick search on Iron and Steel Swords of China: Page 21, inside the box, the first picture is supposed to be a steel octahedral Jian from West Han. Next page there is one that looks octahedral, but it is kind of round, I guess due to its age |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 16, 2015 21:28:10 GMT
Pity they don't show the cross-section. Can't tell from the photo. The one on the next page is the original for "The Jian of Marquis Yi", sbg-sword-store.sword-buyers-guide.com/product251.html (though it's not from Marquis Yi's tomb AFAIK). I haven't seen any photos of this outside its scabbard. But note that the grip isn't cylindrical. |
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Post by AlvaroWang on Jul 16, 2015 22:54:00 GMT
Ooops, my mistake, I meant page 23. The close-up photo you can see the reflection on the blade, but looking again it looks rather hexahedral, not octahedral. Yes, the text says hexahedral. Also, page 27, the close-up photo at the right side. The light gives me the impression of a octahedral blade, I did not translate the entire text, but in a point while discussing these swords it mentions that it is indeed octahedral. It might be written:"This is NOT octahedral", but I think it is not the case. I should pay more attention before writting stuff, I had to edit this post 3 times  |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 17, 2015 11:21:45 GMT
The one on pg 23 is the 2nd blade in the box on pg 21 (one of the two photos is mirror-image flipped). My first thought when I looked through these swords in the book was that it's lenticular. Since it looks like a stripe down the middle, I looked twice, but the lighting on the centre stripe makes it looks curved. I wonder if it's a rounded-off section being called hex (which I might call lenticular, depending on how rounded)?
Pity these photos are from the worst angle to judge cross-section. At least a drawing of the cross-section would be good.
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