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Post by Jayhawk on Jul 6, 2015 21:56:07 GMT
Ok...now I have the jian bug, I have the urge to buy another. The Cold Moon jian I have is on the heavy side and quite good for cutting, so I am thinking of a lighter jian. I am also after a less ornate sword (now that I have wrapped the hilt on my condor dadao...I love it's simple no frills design and superb functionality).
I am looking at the basic Hanwei Practical Tai Chi sword. The Hanwei cutting Jian is nice and simple looking as well, but I don't love the Ming guard and honestly want something lighter.
I have noticed a ton of threads basically saying the prac. tai chi sword is too light and not robust enough to be a real/historical jian, but reading some of Scott Rodell's posts on his forum it seems like the practical tai chi sword is at the low end of historical normal, and in the normal range for what he calls a literati/scholar jian.
So my fellow jian maniacs...your thoughts on the prac. tai chi sword and whether or not it is of historical proportions?
Any reason this would not be a good choice for a lighter jian?
FWIW, I really like the looks of this sword...and don't mind the fiberglass at all....so I am not after aesthetic comments. :-) I plan to wrap the hilt in a traditional wrap like I did on my dadao.
Thanks,
Eric
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 6, 2015 22:45:47 GMT
I haven't seen a normal jian of this length that's this light. However, I've seen twin jian, 27" blades, of under 500g each (probably late 20th century). The Practical is about 550-600g (depending on blade length), which is more than that, but less than the 800g to 1.1kg I usually see for 27-30" blades. Yes, there are jian of those weights, but usually shorter ones.
I have the Adam Hsu jian; the 34" blade is 760g. Which, IMO, is light, but OK. Note that the blade length is measured from where the blade is first visible in the cut-out on the guard, not from the end of the guard. Same thing might be the case for the practical.
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Post by Jayhawk on Jul 6, 2015 22:57:06 GMT
That's one long jian! How does it handle at that length? I assume you are on the taller side?
The 28" practical is listed at 1.4 to 1.45 Lbs on the sites I have seen. OK, that's about 635-660 grams and pretty close to the 1.5lbs to 2lbs cited for the average 28" jian, but I see the CAS Ibara site has it listed down to 1.3 lbs and the review of the newer version on this forum has it right at about 600 grams.
Are there even any 28" 800 gram jians out there commercially available and not custom order? All I ever see are 2lb/900 gram jians (if not 2.2 or 2.4 lbs).
I'm assuming this is as close as it gets since it took 6 extra inches to get to the Hsu blade weight. Actually, proportionally, the 28" practical blade should handle just like your longer blade, right? Really, the 1.4ish lbs at 28" with 6 inches less steel and length should equate to similar handling.
Thanks for the banter and guidance BTW. I appreciate it, and I do realize this may be too light to be historical for the length, but it may be as close as I get without laying down $250 to $500 for a custom or really high end sword, which I have no urge to do unless I come across a great antique I like. In my world, antiques are worth the bigger money, but I prefer sub $200 range for any modern sword.
Eric
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Post by Taiwandeutscher on Jul 7, 2015 0:41:36 GMT
My friend did sharpen his Adam Hsu sword for light cutting, the tang in the hilt did get lose and never could be tightend hard enough. Major reconstruction with lots of problems with the plastic inside, and he still does regret wasting his money.
According Scott (if I do remember him correctly), there were very few light 600g+ swords. I personally don't believe their functionality anyway, neither for cutting, nor for form work, nor for application (we use wood here, as metal is just too dangerous). If trained properly, you should handle a 900g sword well and quick enough.
Not a fan of the A. H. stuff!
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 7, 2015 0:57:48 GMT
1.45 lbs is 660, but 1lb, 4.5oz is 580g. I think that 800g falls in a gap between the lightweight ridged/hollow-ground taiji jian and the more historical diamond-section heavier jian. The TFW jian might be about 800g if it was shorter (but it's 32" and 2lb). Some of the Zhisword jians might be about that weight .Their website only lists weights with scabbard for most models, but from the total weights, some of them might be OK. You could email them to ask what they have for under $200 and about 800g. Some of the WLE jians look OK: www.wle.com/products/WGL198.htmlAlso some of the Sword and Armory jian might be OK (but you might like to email about weight): www.swordnarmory.com/Carbon-Steel-Functional-Kung-Fu-Chinese-Tai-Chi-Sw-p/ss-3318sl.htmwww.swordnarmory.com/Spring-Steel-Master-Chinese-Tai-Chi-Practice-Sword-p/c-5902bk.htmThe 28" Hsu jian was supposed to be 1lb 4oz, so very similar to the practical. While the 34" is built similarly, except for the length, that doesn't mean it handles similarly - the extra length adds extra weight, which is out at the end of the blade. This gives it a much higher moment of inertia and makes it much more sluggish. Relatively sluggish, that is. The 34" is still light and fast, so the 28" would feel really light and fast. The Hsu two-handed jian is a beautiful ultralight longsword. These (and the Practical (and the Hanwei Wushu)) are not for cutting.
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Post by Jayhawk on Jul 7, 2015 1:14:10 GMT
I actually really like this one: www.swordnarmory.com/Carbon-Steel-Functional-Kung-Fu-Chinese-Tai-Chi-Sw-p/ss-3318sl.html It looks REMARKABLY like the Hanwei practical Tai Chi sword but with a heavier blade and a black/white Yin/Yang symbol instead of the metal one. The weight isn't too bad per one review at 1.8lbs. However, I emailed them in the past and they said it's a rat tail tang, but I'd like to know for sure so asked them to take apart the handle and look. The cutting video would lead me to think it's possibly a thin tang but not what I'd call a rat tail (as in welded on at the base). I won't buy one with a weld at the base, but for $49 would likely take a chance if it's just a thin tang. My Cold Moon is from WLE. The blade is superb, I can't get the bamboo peg out to look at the whole tang, but it's definitely a beefy, rounded edged tang and clearly not welded on. I'm a bit annoyed the end of the handle, which is cut to very closely fit the tang (not round at all!), but is not perfectly tight without the end cap screwed on tight. There is no inner nut and washer, but it has a serious mekugni peg holding it all together...so maybe that's a wash? I may either use some bamboo skewers to fill the slight gap in the hilt or could use epoxy...but I'm thinking the bamboo skewers stuffed in there (I'm not sure even one would truly fit) might be a good idea to keep it tight and allow me to more easily take it apart in future. FWIW, the nut at the end and the threaded end of the tang are substantial and haven't come loose with light cutting and quite a bit of dry swinging for fun. How do you get out a mekugni peg that is so tight hitting it with a hammer and metal peg won't budge it? I guess I could drill it out, but since it's all good and not loose at this point maybe I should leave well enough alone. Thoughts on the Cold Moon appreciated. Sounds like the Hsu, which is now discontinued, is more of a real sword than the PC Practical Tai Chi sword...is that the consensus? I wish I liked Ming guards better.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 7, 2015 2:56:55 GMT
The Hsu was sold at a higher price alongside the Practical, but I don't know how much substantial difference there was between the Hsu and the Practical.
If the Cold Moon peg won't come out, perhaps it's glued in. I'd expect a punch to still be able to remove it, but perhaps not without damaging it too much for re-use. Drilling will work. You've tried hitting it from both sides? If it's tapered, it'll only come out one way. But as you say, perhaps best left alone.
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Post by Jayhawk on Jul 7, 2015 3:18:22 GMT
Yep...I pounded on it with a punch on both sides. Maybe it is glued in as you suggested as well as just being a really, really tight fit. I think I'll leave it alone since it's so solidly together, put something in to pack the the thin area in the hilt around the tang tighter, and call it a day.
Would you have concerns about the lack of inner nut and washer beneath the end cap? Does the peg kind of replace that in this situation (especially since it appears to be an immoveable object!)?
I guess I could always drill through the hilt and tang and put another peg in there, but that makes me a bit nervous and I'm not sure it's needed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 3:39:31 GMT
I was under the impression that neither the Practical nor the Adam Hsu Jian were meant for serious cutting, that they were designed for form work and perhaps some light cutting, apparently the tang is fairly thin. Can anyone confirm this?
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Aikidoka
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Post by Aikidoka on Jul 7, 2015 3:47:51 GMT
No, the Practical has a healthy tang. Here is a YouTube video where one was disassembled:
EDIT: As for cutting, I have a box of mats coming this week. I'll see what mine can do.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 4:21:54 GMT
Thanks Aikidoka, so the Hanwei Practical Jian actually does have a decent blade. Did you rebuild it like you mentioned in the video?
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Aikidoka
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Monstrous monk in training...
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Post by Aikidoka on Jul 7, 2015 4:34:24 GMT
No, mine still has the original handle.
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Post by Jayhawk on Jul 7, 2015 4:40:13 GMT
The sheath looks a little rickety, but I thought the handle looked solid and like it actually fit the tang better than the vast majority of lower priced Jian. The review seemed a little harsh about the sword itself. The scabbard looked so thin I'm not sure how any tacks/nails could hold the fittings on it!
The sword itself still doesn't look bad to me, even if it's light.
Anyone have any experience with the sword n armory one linked above? I'd love to see a break down video of it or first hand experience.
Eric
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 4:47:52 GMT
The Hanwei Practical line are done with cheaper, plainer fittings to make them affordable, yet still functional. I have the Hanwei Practical Gongfu Sword, it's an oxtail dao, it's constructed like the practical katana with glued on handle, but it works.
Aikidoka, how has the plastic handle held up to use, considering you've put it back on? Is it the one you're using in your cutting videos? Not sure what type of steel is used for the blade, can't wait to hear about the edge tetention after you get cutting mats for testing.
Thanks
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 4:53:13 GMT
Jayhawk, I believe that the guard of the Practical Jian is not historical, and it is on the lightweight side, but it cuts and is a good weight for forms work, I think it's a great practise sword so I'm actually considering purchasing one myself for my Tai Chi sword training and as a companion to the Practical Dao I already own.
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