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Post by Jayhawk on Jun 25, 2015 1:48:01 GMT
Hurray - my first jian arrived today. Thanks to everyone for the advice. I will post some pics below that show the jian alongside my bargain (but awesome) dao and my dadao. It came with essentially no padding on the ends but it was in a heavy zippered sport bag and sheathed. Not K of A level packing, but I can't complain as the sword arrived in perfect shape. First impression...that's most definitely not a wushu wimpy sword. It's a serious piece of steel with nice solid brass fittings. The wood is pretty and heavy as well. The scabbard weighs as much if not more than my son's cold steel French cavalry sabre's metal scabbard. I am sure the brass adds substantially to the weight...it is not the thin, almost foil like brass or light alloy as seen on lower priced Chinese swords. All fittings are attached with small brass nails - not simply glued on as they are on my dao. The blade is simply lovely. Well made, well tempered with good flex but not flexible like some tai chi swords are in the last third of the blade...this simply flexes as you would expect from a well tempered blade. I was surprised how thick the blade was up by the guard...as thick as the condor dadao! Totally unsharpened. It looks like by design the third of the blade near the guard would never be sharpened, but I do plan on sharpening the rest of the blade eventually. Balance with tassel is only 2ish inches from the guard and without tassel about 3 inches from the guard (tassels have wood blocks in them!). Weight per the terribly inaccurate bathroom scale is 2.4 to 2.6 lbs, so a bit on the heavy side for a 28" blade. However with that close POB, it does not feel heavy. Now for the negatives. Two fittings on the scabbard rattle a tiny bit, and the edges of the wooden grip are not perfectly flush with the brass fittings. That's it...my only two complaints. With the bamboo peg, the hilt assembly is nice and tight. All in all I am very happy with this $149 purchase. It feels like a true combat weapon and not just a forms sword...although I plan to use it to learn tai chi sword. Just had to share. Eric |
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Post by Rain on Jun 26, 2015 20:33:58 GMT
Congratulations. Looks good and sounds like it's a solid build. Would be interested in seeing or hearing about any cutting you may do with it some day.
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Post by Jayhawk on Jun 26, 2015 21:17:29 GMT
Thanks! I've started sharpening it, but it's a slow process. This must be 1065 or maybe 1075...feels just like when I sharpened the already sharp (just not sharp enough for me) condor dadao which is 1075.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Jun 28, 2015 19:47:12 GMT
Nice score! I'll be looking forward to hearing how this'n turns out.
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Post by Jayhawk on Jun 28, 2015 21:23:37 GMT
I finished sharpening her up a bit...just sharpened the top half since I want to learn some forms with it and it's not too sharp until the top third.
I need to try her out on some bottles. For fun, I held the sword about two inches above a metal catfood tin and simply droped the point onto the flat of the can, and it stabbed a full inch into the can.
That was kind of fun.
I am a happy camper. Remeasured the POB without the tassel and it's 3 inches. On par with KC's jian and the CS gim if I recall correctly. Historically, it's a little too close in, but it sure handles nicely.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 28, 2015 23:34:22 GMT
Where's the forward pivot point? IMO, that's the main thing you want right on a jian (i.e., near the tip).
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Post by Jayhawk on Jun 29, 2015 0:06:53 GMT
Ummm...I am not sure how you find the forward pivot point. Let me know how and I will report back.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 29, 2015 1:18:31 GMT
The "forward pivot point" is also what is called the "centre of percussion" everywhere outside the modern sword world (where it usually means "node of vibration", due to misunderstanding what "centre of percussion" meant; this error was already present in some 19th century writing). For point control, a PP close to the tip is good, so you see it on cut-and-thrust swords. The easy way to find it is the waggle test. Otherwise, pendulum test. See: Waggle test video at blog.subcaelo.net/ensis/dynamic-method-weighing-swords/Waggle test, figure 5 in www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts.htmPendulum test, figure 6 in the same article. That's for cut-and-thrust swords. Other swords should and will be balanced quite differently. Sabres often have PP/COP about 10-20cm from the tip, rapiers maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of a blade length from the tip. See www.peterjohnsson.com/the-making-of-a-long-sword/ for some examples. |
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Post by Jayhawk on Jun 29, 2015 4:10:54 GMT
Well...that was interesting. Using the waggle test, repeated several times, the PP appears to be 3.5". My son the historical fencer came down and told me I was doing it wrong and held my sword up and hit the side repeatedly. By his method (also done multiple times), it was 6".
What does this mean to me?
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Post by Croccifixio on Jun 29, 2015 5:01:01 GMT
That's only the vibration node, not necessarily the forward pivot point/COP. Here's a vid from Matt Easton about it:
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 29, 2015 5:47:26 GMT
3.5" works. I'd prefer closer to the tip for a jian, but 3.5" doesn't suck.
The waggle test can take a bit of practice to do right. Pendulum test is more reliable (but takes longer, and you need a pendulum). As said above, hitting the side of the blade finds vibration nodes, which are a different thing (even though both a called "centre of percussion").
As for Matt Easton's video, perhaps he should check it with a pendulum. He gets rotation about quite different points at 0:35 and at 1:35. Which means at least one of those is wrong. My Ringeck has its forward PP at the tip (within 1/2" from the tip).
(My favorite pendulum test pendulum is a golf ball with a string pinned to it.)
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Post by Jayhawk on Jun 29, 2015 10:52:49 GMT
Cool...good to know. It took me some time to understand exactly how the waggle test was done.
My son, who fences epee, small sword, heavy sabre and has done a bit of rapier as well, simply loves the way this jian handles. That's the way I feel, too...it just feels good to handle. He much prefers it to my dao and of course dadao (I think the dadao is too foreign for him...he does like the dao, though).
Thanks for the help on the PP.
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Post by Jayhawk on Jul 2, 2015 4:07:50 GMT
OK, that waggle test is difficult. I've done it 2 times each day since my last post, and I think I was accidentally adding some front and back motion to the side to side thing.
My new answer to the PP is 2". Still not as close to the tip as some jians based upon threads you've chimed in on, but good enough for me.
My son is not a believer in the PP theory, BTW. He's much more of a does the sword feel right kind of guy. He's a heck of a good historical fencer, so I often rely on his opinion of a sword's balance and all and jian or much more similar to European weapons than, for example, my dadao which he doesn't love but I most definitely do.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 2, 2015 6:21:46 GMT
Treat the waggle test as a quick equipment-free substitute for the pendulum test (which appears to date to 1844 as a method for finding PP/CoP on swords; see Burton, Book of the Sword, pg 129, books.google.com/books?id=lsbSuS-Y0nwC&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129 ). 2" is close to the tip compared to lots of other swords. In my experience, on dao we find it at about 1/3 of the way up the blade from the tip (1/3 of the blade length), or even further in towards the hilt. On European sabres, 1/4 to 1/3 of a blade length up from the tip looks normal. Compared to those, 2" is pretty much at the tip. |
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Post by Jayhawk on Jul 11, 2015 14:36:56 GMT
2" is close to the tip compared to lots of other swords. In my experience, on dao we find it at about 1/3 of the way up the blade from the tip (1/3 of the blade length), or even further in towards the hilt. On European sabres, 1/4 to 1/3 of a blade length up from the tip looks normal. Compared to those, 2" is pretty much at the tip. My dao's PP is right about 1/3rd the way up from the tip. I tried the waggle test with my condor dadao, and I keep coming up with the PP as exactly at the tip. Is that truly possible? I was expecting it to be more in the area one would find in a dao. I love my condor dadao...wish the guard were cut a little differently and I've even toyed with the idea of cutting on the guard to get it into a less gaudy shape...but cutting with and using the condor dadao is simply a joy. It's meant to be used, and it'll never be damaged unless you do something fundamentally stupid with it. Plus, with my wrap and tassel...it looks so much better. That plain steak knife looks isn't ideal. Still, for less than $80, you just can't go wrong. |
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Post by Jayhawk on Jul 11, 2015 14:41:50 GMT
Congratulations. Looks good and sounds like it's a solid build. Would be interested in seeing or hearing about any cutting you may do with it some day. I initially did a starting sharpening job with an accusharp, which I thought was good enough since I didn't want it razor sharp. It made short work of very heavy cardboard no issue, but it was more like a baseball bat on water bottles. Seriously, I hit some a good 20-30 feet! Blade and sword were unaffected by this, but it wasn't fun on me and clearly showed I needed to sharpen the blade more. So, I sharpened her up more, and now she cuts through water bottles without issue. I've also broken out the wet stone and put a real/better edge on the last third of the blade. This is a nice cutting sword. |
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 11, 2015 22:22:43 GMT
I tried the waggle test with my condor dadao, and I keep coming up with the PP as exactly at the tip. Is that truly possible? I was expecting it to be more in the area one would find in a dao. Certainly possible. I don't know what's usual for long-handled dadao. It isn't the case for short-handled falchion-like dao, ring-pommel or otherwise. But if you make a long-handled one with the same blade, just with a longer tang, you'll shift the POB in closer and the PP out towards the tip. |
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Post by Turok on Jul 17, 2015 5:27:07 GMT
Great review Jayhawk! I was comparing your sword with Mak Jo Si and it looks like the Chinese writing is different. His looks to be laser etched whereas you have it engraved. Did it also have a sticker on the scabbard from Sum Gwong Lung’s?
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Post by Jayhawk on Jul 17, 2015 10:51:42 GMT
Well, I don't read Chinese at all, but the sticker looked the same as in Mak's video.
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