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Post by svante on Jun 16, 2015 9:57:59 GMT
Hello Forum, Dave Kelly's kind replies to my inquiries regarding what Sabre's to buy in the modern market pushed me to get an antique. I got a 1811 Blucher Sabre that seems to be from after 1831 (regimental markings presents on sword and scabbard). A.M.13.1.45 Spine says: U831 ( any ideas? ), scabbard S&K ( which is the maker ) I need help making sure of one thing, and that is the grip, its awfully sleek with little to no bulge, is this normal? I haven't see any Blucher Sabre's with this feature before. Also is the point broken/reshaped or normal? Just basically have a go at my Sabre tell me everything there is to know about it.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 16, 2015 10:31:16 GMT
How thick is the blade at the hilt? Near the point (maybe halfway between the end of the fuller and the point is a good place to measure it)? I ask because the point doesn't look normal.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Jun 16, 2015 11:03:05 GMT
How thick is the blade at the hilt? Near the point (maybe halfway between the end of the fuller and the point is a good place to measure it)? I ask because the point doesn't look normal. Does look a little rounder, patina looks ok, maybe in it's younger days ?
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Post by svante on Jun 16, 2015 11:03:16 GMT
How thick is the blade at the hilt? Near the point (maybe halfway between the end of the fuller and the point is a good place to measure it)? I ask because the point doesn't look normal. +-8 mm's at the base
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Luka
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,848
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Post by Luka on Jun 16, 2015 12:22:37 GMT
The tip looks like it was damaged and reshaped, but not much length is lost I think. How long is the blade? The grip looks normal to me.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Jun 16, 2015 14:42:09 GMT
Pino is the man to do the markings thing, but I guess U831 could be Ulahnen (1)831? If you have seen the P1796 and Blucher piece by Pino, sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/44053/1796-1811-light-cavalry-sabres I am quite sure the tip had a repair. I concur with Luka. Not much is lost. I would not worry too much about the grip. It doesn't have the same bulk as the ones I have seen, but than again, there are so many sabres with little variations around. Like I said, these had an enormous long life so it is quite possible that it was re hilted at some time and had the grip replaced. Or it is just a quirk from S&k. Of more importance is the health of the wood. I have one sabre where the grip was eaten by wood worms. All that is left is the leather really. Nice sabre! Now go get the other 555 variants! Edit: Just occured to me that it might be an Officers variant with langets. Because of the 8 mm thick blade. My troopers does 9 + mm.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 16, 2015 20:01:56 GMT
How thick is the blade at the hilt? Near the point (maybe halfway between the end of the fuller and the point is a good place to measure it)? I ask because the point doesn't look normal. +-8 mm's at the base And near the tip?
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Post by svante on Jun 16, 2015 20:22:00 GMT
Blade is 32 inches and thickness near the tip is +-3mm's ( using a ruler so not easy to judge ). What would you guys say is the average stats for a blucher sabre? Grip, blade, total, width and thickness.
On mine Grip: 12 cm's, width: 3.5 cm's.
Did the Prussian blucher sabre between when it was first made for the Prussians and later on suffer any changes to the pattern? If so are they documented with dates and what where they?
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Post by Bertek on Jun 16, 2015 20:30:51 GMT
From the pictures you show it looks pretty typical. My guess is someone along the line just re-formed the tip to make it more thrust capable.
Standardization was just coming into fashion with European military contracts so you will often still see some variation in the hilts and blades between contractors.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 16, 2015 21:11:52 GMT
The British version is usually under 2mm near the tip. But the Blucher is heavier, and part of that weight is in a thicker tip, so 3mm might be OK.
Tip might have been reground if the original point broke off, and/or to remove deep nicks.
Your sabre is close to average. 8mm at the hilt is thin (I'd expect 9-10mm), 3mm tip is very thick for a British 1796, maybe OK for Blucher. Length is good - it hasn't lost much from reshaping of the tip. For a Blucher, the weight should be about 900-950g on average (versus about 850-900g for a British trooper's 1796).
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jun 16, 2015 22:04:23 GMT
New method this would translate as Artillery Trains, 1st/13th something. rack num 45
???
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 1:25:48 GMT
A.M.13.1.45 = Artillerie MunitionsKolonne, 13 Armee- Korps, 1st battery, weapon no 45. U831 seems to be the date but allegedly in German sources also referred to as the depotnummer. I've yet to understand the German language to uncovered the truth. If the pommel screw seems to have been played with then the grip may have been refurbished by a collector but I really don't think that's the case here, after the 1850's the form of the M1811 was changed to become a bit lighter (until it fully mutated into the commonly found 1848/73 artillery sabre). additional infoadditional info 2 additional info 3
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jun 17, 2015 21:44:26 GMT
I'm not so well read on Imperial German Orders of Battle but Munitions trains were a Corps asset divided into their own structural assignations. Typically reffered to as columns and sections. Not clear as to how many sections there were in a Corps. Appears to not have a direct correspondence to the number of divisions so much as to an Ordnance policy as to available direct support tonnages to be maintained at Corps level. More than you wanted to know. Don't think the battery assignation is correct to a trains section (sektion) Appreciate the shared German armes blanche page. Here's another for Imperial German tagging: www.cruffler.com/trivia-December99.html
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