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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 1:16:47 GMT
Hi,
I'm preparing to buy my first real sword and would like the opinions of those more knowledgeable in the area than myself.
Some background, I'm 3rd kyu in Shotokan but have never had any formal kendo or kenjutsu training, although one of my Sensei did some bokken work with me on the side, nor am I currently involved with formal martial arts training. I have a very nice Kingfisher L7 Yagyu style hickory bokken, and have handled one for some 30 years, but have never had a live sword and am looking to buy my first one now.
While I'll no doubt have to try it out on some water jugs/bottles when I first procure it, I don't even have a backyard or anticipate doing much cutting with it, but want one that will be a good cutter and a sword I can be proud to display.
I have approximately $450 to spend and have been checking a few different katana out mainly at Kult of Athena. The main 2 that interest me are the:
Hanwei Practical Plus Elite Katana = $318.95 Overall Length: 40 '' Blade: 28'' Weight: 2 lb 9 oz Edge: Sharp P.O.B.: 4 7/8'' Thickness: 7.2 mm - 4.5 mm Width: 34.2 mm Grip Length: 11'' Features genuine Same (Rayskin) on the Tsuka, with a tightly-woven cotton wrap.
Hanwei Practical Pro Elite Katana = $432.95 Overall Length: 44 1/4'' Blade: 28 5/8'' Weight: 3 lb Edge: Sharp P.O.B.: 4 7/8'' Thickness: 7 mm - 4.8 mm Width: 34.9 mm Grip Length: 14 1/8'' The rayskin-covered tsuka is wrapped with cotton ito and is double-pegged for safety.
I'm leaning heavily toward the Practical Pro Elite, but they have a deal on factory seconds for a higher grade blade, where the Saya are blemished but the blade is not effected:
"These ‘’Factory Second’’ Hanwei Shinto Katanas have blemished Saya scabbards - the lacquer coat is uneven, with bubbling, rippling, crinkling or stippling textures present." (hardwood scabbard)
I'm somewhat handy with wood and am considering the benefits of getting a bargain for much the same price as the Practical Pro Elite, and "possibly" refinishing the Saya myself:
Shinto Katana - Blow Out = $449.95 Overall Length: 39 In Blade: 27 In Weight: 2 lb 1 oz Edge: Sharp P.O.B.: 4 7/8'' Thickness: 6.8 mm - 5.3 mm Width: 30 mm Grip Length: 10 1/8'' Japanese cotton over ray skin, black iron tsuba factory second
Koi Katana - Blow Out = $434.95 Overall Length: 45'' Blade: 28 5/8'' Weight: 2 lb 13.5 oz Edge: Sharp P.O.B.: 5 1/2'' Thickness: 7.4 mm - 6.5 mm Width: 33.7 mm Grip Length: 15'' The handle is covered in blackened rayskin, and its Tsuka-ito covering is of premium Japanese white cotton.
However, not having any formal training, and the possibility existing of shattering a (to me) fairly expensive blade, am wondering if I wouldn't be better off with a Cheness "30 9260 Spring Steel Katana:
30" 9260 Spring Steel Katana = $279.99 9260 Silicon Alloy Carbon Spring Steel Full Hand Forged, Through Tempered, Oil Quenched, Hand Polished Blade Dimension 30" Length, 0.3" Width, 1.25" Height Overall Length 43.25" Weight 3 lbs Tsuka/Ho 12" Wood Tsuka Ito Blue Cotton Mekugi Wood & Brass (Double Pinned) Same Real Ray Skin Panel Wrap
Therein lies the conundrum. I might, or might not, be able to refinish the Saya by hand where it's presentable and end up with a higher quality blade. (The Koi looks really nice and would probably go best with a nice, plain, hardwood finish.) I might be better off just buying the Practical Pro Elite and be done with it. Or, risk being disappointed in what I get with the Cheness, but have a blade that would take a licking and keep on sticking.
I'll only be buying one and want to get the best bang out of my buck. It will be about a week before I make my purchase, so I'd be interested in hearing from people who already had a sword while I mull it over.
Thanks in advance.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Mar 26, 2015 2:23:44 GMT
Out of the choices you've listed, I would probably choose the Shinto. I personally found them to be very well balanced and the tsuka was shaped much better than the typical Hanwei tsuka. For me, the saya blemish wouldn't be an issue since I could either fix it or leave it be and it wouldn't affect the function. The other Hanwei katana you mentioned are also good swords but there is a big difference in tsuka length so it would depend on what you'd be more comfortable with. I would also go with the pro models so if you later need to or want to change the tsuka, you can do so without having to chip it off the nakago. Let us know what you wind up getting -Josh
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 3:17:55 GMT
The koi katana is particularly thick and heavy. One of my friends has one. I think it was a blow-out, the saya wasn't a great work of art, but it wasn't a deformed monstrosity either. It isn't a sledgehammer or anything, but it is a beast. What are you looking for in a sword? Or, what do you think you'd have the most fun with? If your heart is set on a heavy cleaver, you'd get a different response than someone who wants to focus on single-handed drawing and striking, and so forth.
If you are looking to save money, and plan on actually using your sword, an imperfect saya finish is not going to impact you as long as everything else is ok. Sometimes it's as minor as they put the sageo on before the finish cured and left impressions. For a display sword you might not want that, but it could work for you depending on where the priorities are at. That's not to say you can't display it, and you should be able to request a good photo of the actual item - much easier to email a picture than deal with the hassle of returns and so forth, so you'll have a better idea of what you'd end up with.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 3:23:29 GMT
Hi Josh,
My Yagyu has a 10.5" tsuka, with no tsuba and a gradual transition, and I keep my hands one width apart and bottom hand about 2" from the end. Not ever having held one, I'd think that with a 14-15" tsuka that would leave a good 4" or so more sticking out from the end than I'm used to, but how I held it would depend on the weight and balance too. I'm 6' 200 lbs so I'm pretty sure I could handle it without it coming back on me, but again, that's without ever having held one.
I do know someone who has a a Paul Chen Wakizashi. It's nice, and extremely sharp, so I doubt I go with the Cheness. My bokken technique differs from the "cast and pull" sword cutting motion I'm under the impression is more appropriate for a live blade, but am fairly confident I could get a clean cut without snapping the blade on what would probably be the few times I'd cut with it.
Right now it's a tentative tossup between the Practical Plus Elite and the Koi, but you aren't the only one I've heard say good things about the Shinto, so I'm not ruling it out and I appreciate your input. I can't remember exactly how the Wakizashi felt, holding it in one hand, but have heard other comments on the squarish feel to a Hanwei tsuka.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 3:34:43 GMT
Hi Jon,
What am I looking for in a sword? I was initially looking at the Cheness SGC, which is a larger blade, and O-Katana, so it is the larger blades that appeal to me.
I doubt I'll be getting into Iaido, and think I'd most enjoy a larger sword I could hold at the ready with both hands. My Yagyu only goes about 18 oz, so it's much lighter and quick than a 3 lb live blade would be, but think that's what I'd like to have.
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Post by Elrikk on Mar 26, 2015 3:56:32 GMT
Kabuki are you a big dude?
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Post by skane on Mar 26, 2015 4:04:14 GMT
From your list, I'd get the Practical Plus Elite as a first kat. Proportions, weight, and geometry for that blade are generally "medium". And for your next Japanese style sword, it'll be a good baseline to decide if you want lighter, heavier, shorter, longer.
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Post by Elrikk on Mar 26, 2015 4:44:27 GMT
I have the Pro and the Cheness and love them both, but I'm a pretty big guy. I sold my shinto for that reason, it was just to small for me....the Pro is a BEAST.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 4:47:25 GMT
Kabuki are you a big dude? I'm 6' 200lbs, though not the mass of muscle I used to be. My Yagyu is 40" long and it clears the floor by about 4" when I have it at rest at my side, so that's at least 30" hanging down. That said, skane might be right. I might be better off with a more conventional size katana than a 3lb blade with a 14-15" tsuka for my first sword, although that Practical Pro Elite does appeal to me.
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Post by Elrikk on Mar 26, 2015 4:54:56 GMT
If I could only have one it would be the Pro. The cheness is nice but a bit front heavy?...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 4:57:28 GMT
If I could only have one it would be the Pro. The cheness is nice but a bit front heavy?... That's probably what I'll end up going with. I like the Koi but would just as soon not have to deal with a sub-par Saya right off the bat on my first sword.
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Post by Matthew.Jensen on Mar 26, 2015 14:09:11 GMT
If you are picking from that list, I would go with the shinto. I have cut a few things with the shinto before and it is just fine for light/medium cutting. I would not flinch at cutting mats or bottles with it. It is also a lot lighter and nicer if you are going to use it for kata or iai. Not that iai can't be done with a heavy sword but it is not as comfortable.
If you decide to look beyond your list, I would take a peek at the classified section here. As a practitioner you would appropriate a sword that has had some customization done to it from a professional. A well fitted sword is a wonderful thing in the hands of someone that appreciates it. Also, if you don't mind a few blemishes you can stretch your dollar a bit further getting one second hand.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 26, 2015 14:27:06 GMT
I don’t know what your objective is, but IMO I would not buy any of those as my first. I would buy a decent quality $100 sword and learn/play with that and have fun. That way a scratch or two, which is sure to happen won’t bother you so much. Then buy, even at the same time, something that you will be proud to show off and admire.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 17:13:51 GMT
I don’t know what your objective is, but IMO I would not buy any of those as my first. I would buy a decent quality $100 sword and learn/play with that and have fun. That way a scratch or two, which is sure to happen won’t bother you so much. Then buy, even at the same time, something that you will be proud to show off and admire. Hi pgandy, I thought $100 and "decent quality sword" were mutually exclusive. As far as learn/play and have fun with a sword, I've had a bokken for 30 years and not many days over that time haven't included at least a few minutes where I picked it up. Now I want a live sword, and while I know it might change, at this time see it as a one time purchase, so I want a quality weapon. I live alone so it's something that nobody else might ever see, but I want it to be something that I can admire. It is also a lot lighter and nicer if you are going to use it for kata or iai. Not that iai can't be done with a heavy sword but it is not as comfortable. Hi Matthew, There aren't any martial arts schools in my area that work with a sword, and in all honesty my days of formal martial arts training are behind me now, so any kata I attempted to learn would be from a book or video. I do have some Iaido demos, but draw and cut isn't something that I'll probably be using it for. More for the sheer pleasure of having it. I'll probably take it out to cut when I first get it, but it's likely to never leave my apartment after that. On the outside chance I had to pick up either a katana or bokken to defend myself in a home invasion situation, I'd probably go with what I'm more accustomed with anyway and go for my Yagyu. Not as intimidating as a live blade in your face, but potentially as deadly, lest we forget what Musashi used at Ganryu Island.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 27, 2015 1:47:38 GMT
Hi pgandy, "I thought $100 and "decent quality sword" were mutually exclusive. :) As far as learn/play and have fun with a sword, I've had a bokken for 30 years and not many days over that time haven't included at least a few minutes where I picked it up. Now I want a live sword, and while I know it might change, at this time see it as a one time purchase, so I want a quality weapon. I live alone so it's something that nobody else might ever see, but I want it to be something that I can admire." Not necessarily. I have one of these and have gotten good service. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/44121/musashi-bamboo-anniversary-review . I also have a $100 Masahiro that I routinely use as my back yard cutter. I was lucky on that one as the quality with Masahiro varies. I was not saying to get a $100 sword in instead of a more expensive sword but suggesting one to have fun with and save a more expensive model.
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Post by LG Martial Arts on Mar 27, 2015 2:02:41 GMT
I would also suggest the Shinto... while the others you mentioned are OK, the Shinto is so much more than that. Great handling and cutting capabilities
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Post by johnwalter on Mar 27, 2015 13:27:26 GMT
Any of the Hanwei practicals will be good first swords.Of what you listed the Shinto is your best bet. Also have a look at Feilong swords and Munetoshi. Forget about Chenness.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 15:32:07 GMT
I have no doubt that the Shinto is the best all-around sword among those I listed, but I do have a couple concerns about it.
Mainly the one that Elrikk brought up about it being too small. A 27" blade, and overall length of 39" seems small to me. My Yagyu bokken is 40" with a 10.5" tsuka. I've been trying to see how something shorter would fit and feel, and think I'd be happier with a larger sword. My jo staff is 50.25" long and that's a length I can handle in a cutting motion, though it doesn't weigh anywhere close to 3lbs.
Light and quick definitely has it's strong points, but I may not even take it out once to cut, and seriously doubt I'll ever be in a situation with a live sword where light and quick is a game changer.
There is also the issue of the saya being a second. As this will be my first real sword, and possibly the only one I ever purchase (yeah, everybody says that) I think I'd be happier with something I could go ahead and set up to display without having to go through the hassle of refinishing the saya, which I might or might not be able to do in a satisfactory manner anyway.
I did take a look at the Feilong and Munetoshi sites, but think I'll stick with Hanwei. I do appreciate everyones input as well. This is a friendly forum, the only one I registered at, and feel I've gotten good advise here.
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Mar 27, 2015 17:48:46 GMT
It is REALLY hard not to grab one of those Shintos...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 22:10:58 GMT
I wasn't aware till I researched it further today that the Koi and Shinto are made of T10 tool steel and the Practical Pro Elite is made from 1065 high carbon steel, and guess I was assuming they were all made from 5610 differentially tempered: www.nihonzashi.com/shinken_koi.aspxwww.nihonzashi.com/shinken_practical_pro_elite.aspxwww.nihonzashi.com/types_of_steel.aspxI didn't know the Koi and Shinto were considered a monosteel construction either: casiberia.com/product/koi-katana/sh2465Which makes me rethink my tentative position on going with the Practical Pro Elite over the Koi or Shinto, and if I couldn't live with a higher quality sword in exchange for a sub-par saya. It is the sword that's the business end of the package...and that Koi is looking better and better. I won't be able to make my purchase till this time next week, and have been like a kid waiting for Christmas, but that may be a good thing in the end.
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